USB Nervosa Thread Decrapifiers, pro interfaces, and bears oh my

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by zerodeefex, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    Check my signature. What better gear do you suggest?
     
  2. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    That is not the real, informed conversation. It is the conversation that goes on between people who don't really know what they are talking about on either side.
     
  3. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    Something that doesn't involve USB.

    No matter, though. You enjoy your expensive cables, and that's fine. I'll ignore you, and be the happier for it.
     
  4. PTS

    PTS Friend

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    Care to enlighten us then, oh wise one? I wouldn't be asking a question if I didn't want it answered, to which landroni already did, eloquently. I don't think Clem or I claimed to be any more knowledgeable than the next guy.
     
  5. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    I am thinking about picking up another Supra USB cable to compare with my existing cables. I owned one previously but sold it with my old DAC.

    Unusually, the Supra USB cable is copper core, plated with tin whereas most audiophile USB cables are plated with silver. Does anybody know what could be the rationale behind this?

    Silver is a slightly better conductor than copper, but tin is a worse conductor. I understand that at high frequencies a digital signal will migrate to the outside of the conductor where it is carried (this is known as the skin effect). Hence the use of silver plating around the outside of the conductor. However, I am unsure whether the data transfer frequency of USB audio is high enough to generate a significant skin effect. Perhaps it is not and therefore the use of silver plating is irrelevant? In which case tin would then be a better choice? It probably doesn't make any significant difference to audio quality, but am just interested to know :)
     
  6. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    Drop the Brooklyn? Some around here wouldn't wish it on their worst enemy...
     
  7. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    The highest rated USB cables are all solid silver with the exception of Mad Scientist. I recently found out about cabledyne.com which sells a 0.7 meter solid silver USB cable for $160 might be worth a try, You can return for a refund within 40 days if you do not like.
     
  8. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    If you have ~600$ to burn on a cable upgrade for a modest system, you're probably being very silly about resource allocation. Hard earned cash would be much wiser used on DAC, amp or more importantly transducer upgrade, before you start dicking around with digital cables.
     
  9. gaspasser

    gaspasser Flatulence Maestro

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    It can’t be the highly-rated Mytek DAC that has him in search of better sound through USB cables, could it? Couldn’t be the top-flight MQA-Tidal pairing either. I think if allegro considers system synergy and goes for a DAC that provides way more detail into his warmer amp and detail-revealing headphones he might be happier. But I would never recommend an obsolete DAC like Yggdrasil to a person who drank the kool-aid that Stereophile is selling. But then again maybe that is why he is here even though he seems to fight against it.
     
  10. winders

    winders boomer

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    I know where an Yggdrasil might be for sale here soon.....
     
  11. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    The MQA mytek DACs sound worse than the previous generation. They also run PCM through the MQA bullshit so it sounds worse too. Basically MQA borked everything.
     
  12. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    Is this a joke? Someone, please tell me this is a joke.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    According to this article on the Belden site:

    https://www.belden.com/blog/broadcast/in-defense-of-tinned-copper

    Tin plating isn't recommended for applications where the signal frequency is 1 MHz or higher.

    Using this page (https://www.edn.com/design/consumer/4376143/Fundamentals-of-USB-Audio) to calculate the data rate of a 192kHz 24bit (32bit with padding) signal, gives:

    frequency * channels * depth
    192,000 * 2 * 32 = 12,288,000 bits per second => 12.288 Mbit/s

    Rule of thumb for calculating frequency from data rate (https://www.edn.com/electronics-blo...umb--2--Signal-bandwidth-from-clock-frequency), frequency is half the bit rate. Therefore the signal frequency is 6.144 MHz .

    I'm not confident that the assumptions are entirely correct. But even so, this would seem to indicate that tin plating is not best suited to an audiophile USB cable. But I am no expert. Maybe I will ask Supra about their decision. Their cable did sound good with my old DAC though (better than the QED cable I was using previously).
     
  14. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    And a pervasive, well understood (aka old news), process. Hey, I'm sending digital data now via writing this message over hundreds, even thousands of miles, over analog signals (thanks Ethernet!), and while TCP/IP does correct for errors, reliable, accurate, digital data transfer over a short USB cable is something I'm not going to fret over.

    Noise is possible, but as others have said, that is what an active device like the Eitr is for. True isolation.

    Actually there is no such thing as electronics that does not have some noise, hence the reason manufacturers measure and print specs.

    Yea, if someone is spending many hundreds on a cable, there is much better bang for the buck that money could be used toward.
     
  15. AllanMarcus

    AllanMarcus Friend

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    The Eitr is what they got when they provided a better Wyrd at a higher price point. The Eitr is already the "upgraded" model.

    I would be completely shocked is anyone could tell the different in a DBT. I heard the top AQ cables pitted against Walmart cables at a ListenUp a few years ago, on a pretty nice ~$20k speaker system. AQ was doing the demo. Heswiatch a cable, played the same music, switched a cable, played the same music. I, and many other "audiophiles" in the room could not hear a difference. Some claimed they could. I was not convinced.

    From CNET:
    But, to repeat: an expensive USB cable isn't going to make your audio sound better, your pictures look better, or your printouts look sharper.

    That said, FWIW this is a nice compilation of explanations from the major audio cable makers.
     
  16. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    If you want cool looking cables then go for it, but those reasons are aesthetic, or real practical differences (e.g., some headphone cables transmit a lot of mechanical noise when brushed).

    But talk to the electrical engineers or physicists if you think you are hearing quantum level noise effects - hint: You are not.

    Or listen to the electrical engineers at least? There is a reason Schiit isn't selling you $600 cables. They are selling DACs, an isolation device, and a variety of amps, etc., but think about the immense engineering effort to produce those products.

    Or talk to the psychologists, for a good refresher course on placebo effects.

    p.s. For a real eye opener, talk with marketing/sales people (hint: get them drunk first). They really will say anything to make a sale, cause that is their job ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Well, yes... but there certainly are mysteries with this USB stuff, so maybe I can't...

    Who hasn't has had a printer, or some other peripheral device that would not work with one particular cable (which worked for everything else) but does with others?

    Who has not had stuff that works on some ports but not on others, Currently I have a Sony camera which will not work on one hub, but does on another.

    In recent years, phone batteries got bigger, charging systems got more sophisticated, and people found that their new phone, on their old USB cable would not charge at all. It wasn't built to spec and the current-carrying conductor could not carry enough current.

    So, sure, everything is not always well in the world of USB, but no, I do not have the hardware knowledge to explain all those irritations. I know this, though: none of those problems required a very expensive cable to fix. True, some of the cheapo ones were left fit only for the bin, but nothing needed more than a few bucks spending on it. Not megabucks. Not even decabucks. Just the price of a decent, well-made, to-spec cable.

    So this brings us back to ones and zeroes. Problems with getting "other sorts" of ones and zeroes to other sorts of devices do sometimes happen. But they are not fixed with expensive audiophoolery.

    I have some other theories which may or may or may not be either true or useful. One of these is that an awful lot of people use laptops as a digital music source. Laptops may or may not have electrically noisy power supplies. That electrical noise may or may not be passed to connected (but not isolated) devices, and might, with audio, be audible. USB might get the blame: it might or might not deserve it, but, once again, audio jewellery is not going to fix this problem.

    For fun, in these conversations, I like to say that my favourite USB cable is the Archimago "C".

    It proves a point. But it probably wouldn't charge my phone, so my collection of stuff like that has sunk low in the wires box and all my currently-in-use cables, are, in so far as I can believe the makers, "proper" ones. They charge my phone, for starters. If I have a problem with USB, and, although I have have not had any recent such audio problems, then, if not damaged (some of them haven't worked since being under flood water: I always assumed that the connector housing was moulded on. Might be, but it is not waterproof), It probably isn't the cable.

    But this is all about absence of nervosa, so completely offtopic!
     
  18. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    Even if you don't believe that USB cables make a difference, there are a couple of things you can do which clearly could make a difference.

    One is to lift the USB shield. This lifts a ground loop which can cause tonal nasties. It'ss really easy to try out. Put some masking tape over the outer metal surface of the plug at the PC end.

    Another is to disconnect the 5v line if the DAC doesn't use it (eg on Gen 5 or Eitr). Don't think this can be done without physically cutting the connection. Haven't tried this yet but it's on my to do list.
     
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    If I remember rightly, Archimago has another article on his blog in which he cures a real USB noise problem by using an optical isolator in the line.

    Yes, there are are real problems, and real cures.
     
  20. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    One way of reversibly disconnecting the 5v line is to put a small strip of electrical tape over the VBus contact inside the source plug (or destination plug, if you prefer). It is the first pin from the right looking face on to the Type A (source) plug (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB). It is a bit tricky to stick down. Picked this tip up elsewhere on the net (can't remember where). I remember reading that the Ground pin should be left uncovered.
     

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