USB Nervosa Thread Decrapifiers, pro interfaces, and bears oh my

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by zerodeefex, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Yea, there is really not much to USB. Ground (which can cause a ground loop), +5V, and data (two lines, good old differential signals, now a very old and well understood scheme to reject common noise).

    An Eitr will take care of isolating GND and +5V. Unless the data wires are utterly screwed, or the receiver is poorly designed, no reason for an over priced cable to transmit audio data to a DAC. I am sending higher bandwidth signals over much longer distances in my house over Ethernet, and I am not paying $100 a foot to do so either.
     
  2. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Or just use SPDIF over TOSLINK, no ground, no +5V, etc. Some say optical has greater jitter, but if your DAC reclocks, it may not matter.

    My new tagline - Real problems aren't solved by magical solutions except rarely be taking pot shots at it; they are solved by understanding what is going on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  3. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    But guys! That final 0.001 percent!

    The number of zeros after the decimal point being equal to the number of digits before it in the price. Supposedly.
     
  4. PTS

    PTS Friend

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    You definitely can't, after blathering on about printers, cameras, phone charging, and lord knows what else - so maybe think twice before rudely accusing other forum members of ignorance. You ultimately ended up agreeing that expensive USB cables are not necessary.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  5. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Ground loop issues are real, and this is definitely a factor with USB, but the solution is to break the ground loop, or connect the gear to the same ground, or move the source of noise, or just don't use USB. There are other connectivity options that isolate ground. The Eitr breaks the ground loop (and there are other isolation solutions too), but there is no mystery about ground loops. It's a well understood issue.

    What is true is that USB is a complex enough protocol that there may be some crap implementations out there. It is a convenient option though, and I think I had read some Schiit's musing over it. Yea, to sell a DAC these days you essentially must support USB. From a marketing point of view you'd lose too many sales to ignore it, but the complexity of USB is not rooted in cables. Bad cables happen, true. Still the difference between a bad cable, a functional cable, and a $100 foot cable... there is a reason Schiit tells you just use a functional cable. That is all that is needed.

    There is a bit of truth to cables making a difference, but it doesn't cost $100 a foot to meet spec. When I was running my old cat 5 ethernet wires, I ran into transfer limits. Upgrading to cat 6 solved that, but still no $100 a foot, silver, gold, or platinum, rubidium, unatinium wires, required. You have to trust that those who engineered the spec really do understand digital signal transfer over analog wave forms, and what is required. Really, they aren't dummies ;)

    Let's be honest with ourselves. We humans are inclined to believe in magic, and there is always going to be someone who leverages that angle, to sell us $100 a foot cables and other magic baubles. It's fine, and also fine to call BS.
     
  6. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Wait, was arguing with that point of view? If so, I completely misunderstood @Clemmaster's post. It happens. I can be really stupid. But you could have been a bit more gentle in bringing it to my attention!

    None the less: my comments were not aimed at forum members, but about the audio world in general. I accused no-one here of being ignorant.
     
  7. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    USB is hard to get right. Cables out of spec, random voodoo boxes push things out of spec, piss poor PCB impedance tuning, crap or half-assed software implementation of USB (hell, even down to the kernel USB stack on the host), WTF PCB layout, etc all can make your digital audio suck. USB is a f'ing minefield.

    BUT, sometimes audiophiles think a fancy USB cable, an increasingly expensive exotic chain of random f'ing boxes, or straight voodoo can improve the sound. It's easy to believe in $200 cables, etc, but really all you should be attempting with these solutions is un-f'ing the signal, not trying to make USB magically better than it is. When you flip it around like this, it's easier to make better choices with regard to your USB nervosa purchases.

    Most of the voodoo here is because we want to believe that there's something special out there in the ephemeral realm that will improve our USB to make it more "analog-like" or "more like the better-er digital implementations of yore. I think it makes many of us chase stupid bullshit like the CA guys because it helps us to continue the journey.

    I'm here to tell you: don't do it. Unless you have a specific problem, investing in all the tomfoolery is equivalent to throwing bags of cash into a wishing well as a retirement strategy. We've gotten to the point where USB out of an Eitr or Gen5 is really good! Is the Lynx card in my dedicated PC with crazy over-analyzed set of component choices or my Theta Data III via AES feeding my new shiny Yggdrasil 0.05% better? Probably. Are they enough better-er that anyone should care? Probably not.
     
  8. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    When my USB nervosa starts in, I connect my CDP to my Modi Multibit. If that doesn't work I grab the Gungnir Multibit. Problem solved. Funny when I go back to USB, (with Eitr or Gen 5) I don't hear a difference. Unless my placebo effect kicks in. Then I have to switch back. If all else fails, I go watch some T.V. *

    *results may not be typical for all people. Some side effects can occur. These can include continually switching components, a constant need for a new headphone or cable switching, or still hearing a difference. If these occur, you may have irreversible nervosa. Or better hearing than others. ;)

    I’ve been chasing the cable dragon etc. for too long. I like what I have. I listen to the music now. If one doesn’t like their set up yet, keep searching. And good luck.
     
  9. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

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    It's tempting to jump in here and tell my story about magic USB boxes and cables which to my ears work as intended. But would I be bashed by you good people for being a believer :D ?
     
  10. Neal

    Neal Facebook Friend

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    It's not that people here don't believe that USB cables/decrapifiers/etc make any difference - it's that the money for those things would be more wisely spent on better transducers, amps, sources, vacations, etc.
     
  11. Forza AudioWorks

    Forza AudioWorks MOT: Forza AudioWorks

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    OK, let me ask you this: $350 or so for a sound improving galvanic isolator would you consider as money wisely spent?

    I'm asking because in my eyes it all depends on what one already has. For instance, if I had a USB based $600 headphone rig, I probably wouldn't go after USB tweaks this expensive and I'd focus on key parts here. But if one has $60 000 speaker setup, to spend say 5% on a cable that actually does something audible and positive for its owner (no matter how subjective it is) seems to be justified to me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  12. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

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    Certainly the context of system budget matters. I think the issue is more about directly or indirectly making recommendations to relative newcomers with much more modest rigs. Here we're talking about extracting the last few drips of performance from USB, which may or may not even be noticeable depending on the rest of the chain.

    Cabling specifically, whether USB or headphone or general system interconnect will remain a topic of debate, and IMHO should probably be the last consideration since (in my experience) it's not really going to change the flavor but maybe just enhance a little something here or there. Part of the hobby, sure, but it shouldn't be evangelized as game-changing.
     
  13. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Oh Schiit... Eitr. --- "complete electrostatic and electromagnetic isolation (via transformers)..."

    But that might post-date your purchase. My galvanic isolator was under $20 --- and haha, it sounded bad. Plainly, I should have spent $25!

    :D
     
  14. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    The Eitr. Owned and heard other more expensive boxes. Best value/ performance around. Maybe close to best performance for USB.
     
  15. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    In the first 72 pages of this thread that would have been fine, but now that the Eitr is out you would need a lot of other ears on such a device.
     
  16. fishski13

    fishski13 Friend

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    I recently upgraded my Gung DS to Gen 5. Running Cantata/MPD>Gung>Neurochrome HP-1>HD600, it's a no-brainer upgrade, sounding much better than Gen 2 with or without Wyrd.
     
  17. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    I just received my Yggdrasil that I upgraded with Gen5 so I will be comparing to my Spdif setup (a Regen fed with better PSU, into a Pro3a) ...
    and regardless of any differences or preferences,
    I Will try update here which gives the more realistic result.
     
  18. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    I have directly compared my majorly tweaked AOIP setup to the Gen-5 upgrade and the Eitr.

    The Gen-5 is really close, in either the drop in card or the Eitr, to my AOIP feed.
    And I'd hazard a guess that for most the added complexity and $$$$ probably won't be worth the hassle, that is unless you are shooting for 10/10ths in SQ.

    And AOIP is or can be far superior in SQ to any digital audio feed, whether its USB, or SPDIF, or even straight AES, despite it's added complexity, EXCEPT for a Gen-5 implementation.

    It's so good, that 's it's pretty much a no brainer.
    For me it has closed the gap and elevated USB to a very close 2nd place right behind a tweaked AOIP setup.

    As soon as AOIP 'showed up' they were simply not in the same league despite throwing wyrds (2 of them) and better cables at USB. And up until Gen-5 'showed up', that gap had widened up as further refinements and tweaks were incorporated into the AOIP.

    Then Gen-5 upped the game, and in a single stroke took a MAJOR 'mutha may I' step up.

    As for a tweako USB cable that is readily available, and costs $20.
    I really like the Schiit PYST USB cable. It checks off ALL of the design and implementation check boxes that I look for. And you just KNOW it's fully USB compliant.

    Just my 2¢

    JJ
     
  19. Kattefjaes

    Kattefjaes Mostly Harmless

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    Yeah, that's the beauty of it- total no-brainer, and gets you 95% of the way there for zero effort. Really happy with the gen5 here.

    Out of interest, did you ever solve your issues with gen2 and Linux? Did you try gen5 directly?
     
  20. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Frequently asked and very misleading question. First, it only makes sense if a DAC in your $60 000 setup has only USB input. It means that you are already running your Porsche Panamera on a $70 a piece General tires. Otherwise, simple experiment: get yourself RPi with Digi+ Pro, solder BNC connector (<$100 for a pack) and use it as source (like Roon enpoint), against any USB chain with 10 decrapifiers. Oh sorry you also need a Canare BNC cable for $20.
    Or buy Eitr. And listen
     

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