Vintage DACs

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Luckbad, Apr 26, 2016.

  1. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    Hi guys,

    Apologies for bumping such an old thread.

    I will go straight to point, is US$1,400 a good price for Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 MK2 in 2020?

    I currently have a loaner Parasound 1100HD that has been heavily modified with a discrete analogue stage and it has an interesting sound so I'm interested in learning more about these vintage DACs.

    As usual thanks in advance for your advice.
     
  2. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Based on my experience with vintage dacs, it is insane. Remove the leading 1 from the price and it might be worth it just to hear a different presentation.

    Kind of like spending $25k on a 6 cylinder 1965 mustang when you can buy a new Accord. But some people do just that.
     
  3. Druid

    Druid Hyperactive Tree

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    The SFD-2 is my main DAC, and I love it, so I'm biased, but it really comes down to condition. I paid around that price for mine a few years back. However the seller is super respected on this forum so I trusted his word and it ended up being in pristine shape.

    I'd make sure that you have pictures outside and inside and if there are any doubts about it's condition then negotiate for a lower price or don't bite.
     
  4. Mr.Sneis

    Mr.Sneis Friend

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    That's a great price imo, I'd be all over it. Not sure if Bixby is for or against the idea.

    The sfd2mk2 has a much different sound than the sfd1mk2 btw, despite similarities. I.e. Not the same sound but better type situation.
     
  5. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    Hi guys,

    Thanks for the replies. It's tempting too because such DACs are extremely rare in Southeast Asia.

    The only concern is the seller lives in a different city so audiotioning will be difficult. The SFD-2 has been modified with an USB input so I'm asking the seller for more details but he did say that the other components are stock.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    My only point of reference is the modified Parasound 1100HD which to my ears are kind of warm sounding and not very detailed but are really great at portraying black background, human vocal and impact / attack. Is the SFD-2 going to have a similar sound signature like that?

    As usual thanks in advance.
     
  6. Enigmatic

    Enigmatic Friend

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    It's a good price - Much cheaper than the ones which occasionally pops up on eBay (usually 1k for SFD1MK2, ~2k for SFD2MKII). I know I'd try to snatch it up (if I am in better financial state). Try to get an innards shot as well - Typical modifications are on the output stage (those big white caps on the top left), and you'd tend to see replaced caps around the transformer.

    If you are good with repairs or know someone, I'd say it's a good deal. Personally a bit concerned about the USB modification especially with shoddy workmanship, so yea please let us know how's that like when you have more information.
     
  7. Druid

    Druid Hyperactive Tree

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    The SFD-2 is only very slightly warm sounding. Much closer to neutral than the SFD-1, but with that analog-like, organic sound that multibit brings. It's very resolving and detailed. It also brings some heft in the bass. I'd like to say that it's in a similar league as Yggdrasil, but I've never heard Yggdrasil so I'll leave that comparison to someone that has heard both.
     
  8. Mindbender

    Mindbender Acquaintance

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    I swear I'm seeing things but that sure looks like a USB digital input on the back. Which is unlikely if this unit is from the 90's.

    I'd love to hear it for a day. Always curious about this brand.
     
  9. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    @Mindbender It has been modified which makes me a bit worried.

    I managed to find another unit which is unmodified but it's MK1 version with gold front plate. I read up a bit and it seems that the main difference is the digital filter used. Do you guys who are experts of Sonic Frontier DAC find a big different sound wise between MK1 and MK2 versions?
     
  10. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    Just a little update I'm reconsidering the purchase because the seller wants est. US$2,000 for his SFD-2. I'm not sure that price is worthy for a 20 years old unit.
     
  11. Enigmatic

    Enigmatic Friend

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    2000USD is *way* too much tbh.
     
  12. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    That's a recessed BNC receptacle.
     
  13. haywood

    haywood Friend

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    He’s mentioned about 5 times it’s been modified and it seems bnc was the unlucky donor hole.

    It’s exceedingly likely the usb input is just an spdif converter embedded in the box, but unless the dac has been recently serviced and had aging parts replaced by a reputable shop then its too big a gamble.
     
  14. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Ah! You're right - on that particular dac that's been modded. I thought we were looking at a stock box. Sorry for confusion!
     
  15. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    I am not sure where to post but I currently have a loaner Gungnir Multibit, I think it's the first generation.

    I think it's interesting to note that compared to the modified Parasound 1100HD the Gungnir sounds even warmer but has better resolution. I need to listen to it some more.
     
  16. tommytakis

    tommytakis MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Sonic Frontiers SFD2 Mk2
    IMG-4578.jpg

    I first heard of this DAC when Donald came over to my place to let me audition his prototype Starlett. Then when I started lurking on SBAF, I found a thread for SFD1 which renewed my interest in this DAC. I’ve been searching for this DAC for some time now, and finally it happened thanks to a super generous friend.

    Listening Rig: Pi2AES > Sonic Frontiers SFD Mk.2 | Matrix X Sabre Pro MQA > Bryston BHA-1 > JAR650 | Borealis
    • First things first, this thing is heavy af. 35 lbs was what was marked on the shipping label and definitely felt like it when the UPS dude handed the package over to me. Thankfully, this huge monster of a DAC fit into my $35 AV rack from Ebay. Make sure you have something that can handle its size and weight (lol)
    • I wish this had a USB input for convenience, but Pi2AES is what I use 99% of the time so no biggie.
    • I don’t think a major warm up time is necessary and sounded fine to me right after I turned it on.
    • One concern I had before purchasing DAC was that it will add too much warmth in my system based on what I’ve read from the impressions in the SFD1 thread, but SFD2 doesn’t seem to be the case.
    • I would say tonality wise, maybe split the difference between Bifrost 2 and Gungnir Multibit A2? I still hear the slight warmth added when in comparison to my Matrix X Sabre Pro, but not as much as a Bifrost 2 (Not that Bifrost 2 is an overly warm dac, just in relative terms) and sounds relatively “neutral.” Apparently SFD2 is less warm and euphonic sounding than the SFD1, but I’ve never heard the SFD1 so YMMV.
    • The highs and transients are much more gentle and very slightly rounded in comparison to XSP’s modern, “square or w/e that means,” and aggressive sound. I like both, depending on amp pairings, but sometimes the XSP can make some amps feel overly sharpened with slightly unnatural contrast.
    • There’s a sense of fullness with those vintage R2R tone density that makes vocals sound layered, smooth, and realistic. It sounds “human” and free of digitius, very reminiscent of my Bifrost 2, which served as my main DAC for some time.
    • Superb dynamics, both macro and microdynamics. Switching over from the XSP was very noticeable in the macrodynamics and slam. This thing kicks and slaps with the BHA-1 while portraying the nuances of music, keeping you engaged in music for hours. Borealis really shines with this DAC and BHA-1.
    • I’m terrible at judging plankton, but I can tell you I don’t get the unsettled feeling that I get when I plug in my 650s into shitty gear. I couldn’t stop listening to it for hours, so good thing I took a day off from studying haha
    • Sonic Frontiers are known for their expansive staging and yeah they excel in this area. Images aren’t as clearly defined as XSP, but definitely feels more natural. Good sense of depth and width. Doesn’t sound as overly diffuse as I thought it would be.
    • Clarity and “blackness” is not the best I’ve heard from a DAC, but it’s decent. I would say it’s around the same level as a Bifrost 2. Maybe my ears are still not used to it from XSP’s excellent sense of clarity, helping remove that Sennheiser veil from my JAR650.
    • In terms of pairing, both JAR650 and Borealis worked well. I didn’t like the Borealis with XSP+ BHA-1, but with SFD2+BHA-1, it sounds very very good. Mids and upper mids get more filled in and reduces the treble peak of the Borealis. I think I slightly prefer the JAR650 with XSP+BHA-1 for a more lively presentation, though it doesn’t sound as natural and dynamic as SFD2+BHA-1. I’m willing to bet that SW51+ will sound excellent with this DAC as it was a dreamy combo with the Bifrost 2. SFD2 & BF2 are more similar than different in my opinion. I’ll report back once I get my hands on the Starlett, but I imagine it will be a good pairing as well.
    • I didn’t really do any tube rolling yet, because I like how it sounds already. Sadly, the tube prices for this DAC can get pretty ridiculous
    Yeah this DAC rocks my socks off with superb dynamics, expansive stage, w/ vintage R2R tone density. I probably never would have heard of this DAC if it wasn’t for Donald or SBAF, so thanks a lot fam! I feel like I now own a piece of relic from the past with a lot of history and the inner hipster in me is screaming with joy. Major shout out to @ogodei for always giving me a friendly discount and @Artasia for edu-ma-cating me on tubes for SFD!
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  17. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    @tommytakis nice review! Always wanted to hear the SFD.

    If you want to short term trade for Monarchy M22B or EAD DSP 9000 III sometime, let me know! Still regret not buying the Theta Gen V when it was posted here a couple years ago at $600. Harder and harder to find them these days, but my favorite of what I've heard in my own system (had one on long term loaner for a while) .
     
  18. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    @tommytakis Nice review. Will you say that it's more neutral than Gungnir Multibit 1st gen? I have the Gungnir loaner now but I'm surprised with how warm it is even though it has great resolution.
     
  19. tommytakis

    tommytakis MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    I think so, there's definitely more treble sparkle and less forward sounding with the SFD2 than the Gungnir Multibit A1. I haven't heard the A1 in a while, but I remember sometimes I would feel like it's ever so slightly rolled off in the top end. It could also be the Eitr that I also used that time. Wish I could give you a more fleshed out answer, but I don't want to talk out of my ass about something I haven't heard in almost a year. Also be ware that "neutral" is also such a subjective term, so YMMV.
     
  20. Enigmatic

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    The prices of these 6922-and-variant tubes *are* ridiculous indeed. Occasionally I have came across a couple good deals on eBay but only sometimes, out of those notable ones I've recently seen (and have heard with the Sonic Frontiers):

    • Green/blue label Philips JAN 6922 tubes for ~10USD a pop performs quite decent and tends to be NOS with box. Don't pay more than 15USD per piece though. I can be happy with just these.

    • Siemens E88CC - The ones with gold pins - They sound more expansive and a tad smoother than the Philips 6922 tubes. But I will shy from paying more than 30USD per piece. Look hard enough and be patient, will occasionally come up for ~20USD per piece, without box and slightly worn, which works just fine. Problem is the cheaper ones tend to appear on the Euro-zone eBay microsites and at times sellers don't ship to US (if that's where you are living).

    • Another decent and most importantly, cheap, tube to look out for are those made in West Germany/Holland 6DJ8 tubes, sometimes labeled as RCA. Typically made by Siemens, steel pins instead of gold. They take more effort to identify so not for everyone, but can be bought for ~15USD per piece.

    Forget about those Telefunkens/Amperexes/CCAs for 200~400USD for a matched pair......... Those are some seriously weird prices..... I'd gain more pleasure taking my family out for a good meal together.
     

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