What makes a product high-end?

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by tomchr, Oct 4, 2017.

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  1. FallingObjects

    FallingObjects Pay It Forward

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    I wonder if we can train the system to get these onto the amazon ad-links in these kinds of threads, definitely a new ad revenue source for the forum.

    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=ten+foot+poles

    In more serious discussion, I interpret the term as 'Last planned purchase until obsolescence with no obvious advantages over substitutes', for non-consumables at least, though there are obviously no hard and fast rules around that definition.

    You could consider $50 headphones as your 'last planned purchase', but I doubt many would consider that there aren't better alternatives you could buy. However, the HD800s, or even the HD650s are at the point where the list of 'obvious' advantages start to get fairly short. Do you buy Utopias? Are Utopias definitely 'better' than the HD650s? It has become more user experience and preference than metrics that can be captured in supply/demand discussions, or arbitrary price cut-offs.

    Just my two cents.

    Edit: by those metrics, expensive break-often products are excluded from true 'high-end', unless obsolescence has a 2 year timeframe for you. Looking at you, Breaks by Dre.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  2. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    You mean like this?

    Rumination syndrome
    , is an under-diagnosed chronic motility disorder characterized by effortless regurgitation of most meals following consumption, due to the involuntary contraction of the muscles around the abdomen.*

    *may be due to listening to way over priced "hi-end" audio equipment.
     
  3. aamefford

    aamefford Nothing like chamberpot coffee

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    This covers it most succinctly for me. The question “what is high performance” is a more difficult one imho.
     
  4. colhd

    colhd Acquaintance

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    For me "high end" means some item of equipment that represents, or at least gets close to, state of the art in many or all aspects of its performance, as determined by me and/or those whose opinions I respect and trust.

    I consider the Sennheiser HD800 to be a "high end" headphone and from lurking for a while I think most people here at SBAF would agree. (Please notice that I said "think" and "most", I know that I am generalising and I am not speaking for everyone). It might be grudging agreement, perhaps some don't care about the soundstage or don't like its bright presentation etc but they probably acknowledge that it does certain things better, or as well as, pretty much everything else. So to my way of thinking the HD800 is "high end". Taking this a little further, is the very expensive Fostex TH900 high end? I have never heard them but from reading here I get the feeling that they have too many flaws to be called high end by my definition of "many or all aspects of performance". Same goes for the Sony MDR-Z1, Grado PS1000e and many other expensive pieces of kit.
     
  5. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    Holy crap?! Did the amp actually ship from the manufacturer like that? That's rather scary!

    Tom


     
  6. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    I like the discussion so far. Nice work folks.

    Another way to word the question would be: When you see a product and go "wow, that's high-end", what drives that response? Or if you look at a product and go "that's not high-end enough for me to consider it" do you have a sense of why you chose to put that product in the "not high-end" pile?

    I like @GTABeancounter's list. Good industrial design, good engineering, no obvious flaws in the measurements, etc.

    Not to open another can of worms, but when you say "performance" are you referring to technical performance (measurements), subjective performance (you like it), or subjective performance (reviewers like it)? Or maybe some combination of the three? I'm asking to make sure I understand you correctly.

    Another Costco-sized can of worms to open would be how people decide which reviewer(s) to trust, but that's a topic for another day.

    Tom
     
  7. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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  8. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    when it comes to amps, i dont really care if SS measure infinitely better, I certainly cannot hear 0.1% tube distortion or 0.001% of transistor, its the subjective sq that will help me determine just how good a amp. of course, if we look at the Sprout amp, i would not even allow such amp in my system due to terrible measurements, but when it comes to two neutral and flat amps, subjective evaluation is required... probably because I dont understand enough technically to determine, by looking at the design and the schematic, just how good it is.

    id say is the same for dac, I couldnt care less if OS measure better, I prefer NOS DAC.

    when it comes to speakers/headphones, technical performance is very important. i take measurements much more seriously, especially the FR and im looking for at least a relatively flat speaker. i couldnt even consider to buy a speaker nowadays that dont measure well. ive had my share of bad measuring speakers and my appreciation of a speaker is directly related to the FR.
     
  9. Scubadude

    Scubadude Almost "Made"

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    Wikipedia come quite close with this definition ...

    "High-end audio is a class of consumer home audio equipment marketed to audiophiles on the basis of high price or quality, and esoteric or novel sound reproduction technologies."

    Price and bragging rights certainly play a role but I remember my brother and I listening to a flea power DIY integrated amp and some nondescript bookshelf speakers in the 80's and saying "hey, that piano passage sounded high-end".
     
  10. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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    An excellent point, I think. One of the many problems in this hobby (as well as language in general) is that there is an 'assumption of understanding', I think. One man's treble canon is another woman's detailed. So I consider your question a necessary can of worms.

    If I'm being honest, for me the answer is primarily subjective.

    Technical performance will definitely be taken into consideration, some times it (the specs) can even color my opinion of what I hear...I am aware of that, but I think in a good way. An example would be the Beyer DT 1770. Upon 1st listen, I really enjoyed it (and bought it). After reading Ultrabike's measurements & opinion, I listened again, and I'll be darned if I could un-hear what I heard after that. Whether that 'opened my ears' or colored my opinion, I couldn't say, but I sold it (I hope it was the former not the latter). I really know little to nothing about design/engineering, which is I rely on sites like this and the little that specs can tell me.

    As far as reviewers. there are a few I trust (for me it has to do with reviews of things I have personal experience with. Whether or not the reviewer has the same taste is irrelevant as long as I can see/hear where the reviewer is coming from).

    The short answer is a combo of all three, heavily weighted toward the subjective.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  11. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    High end is when objective quality coincides with subjective excellence.
     
  12. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Here more of what I think:
    ''high end'' (synonymous to ''top shelf'' also used in place of TOTL a lot with which it sometimes coincides) is rather universal and grand definition of best tech human race can achieve. Consumer audio (well, not only audio) business have stained it with from both manufacturer's side and consumer side.
    I'd like the definition to be applied to things like Steinway concert grand, Hilti power tools and Wavetek 8.5 digit multimeters and things that are meant to go up in space.
    These things have close to spotless reputation among professionals. They are legendary. That is 'high end'.

    $$$$$$ = ''Hi-end'' is probably originally invented by poor audio objectivists.
    ''High end'' is simply not for every average Joe.
     
  13. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    That's a nice and concise one. I get the point. What's good are good measurements if you aren't moved by the listening experience. The big question for me is: How can I create that warm & fuzzy feeling of engagement with the music?

    Sadly, there's a body of research that supports the notion that a bigger price tag results a better subjective experience. Humans are funny that way. :)

    It's hard to tease these things apart, which is exactly why I chose to pose the question.

    Tom
     
  14. bengo

    bengo Friend

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    :D @Ringingears
    [​IMG]

    My opinion, "high-end" = sounds a f**k of a lot better than anything you heard up until that point, like a big gap rather than incrementally. Thus, there can always be a "higher-end" until you reach HD800, Utopia or your other personal unicorn.
     
  15. Dino

    Dino Friend

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    Harry Pearson, Founder and Editor of 'The Absolute Sound' magazine, coined the term "The High End". I remember reading an editorial/article where he was upset about how the term was being used. He didn't like it being used to refer to the most expensive products in general, and audio products in particular.

    He intended the term to be used to refer to audio products that met his definition of the best (regardless of price) which was the best at "The reproduction of acoustic instruments played in a real acoustic space." or something like that. And if an audio component was able to reproduce that, it would also be the best at reproducing music in general. He went on to say that "The High End" was usually expensive because that gave a company more to work with to achieve that end but price alone was not a determining factor.

    That is where the term came from (from memory and I was paraphrasing). Words and terms evolve. Now it seems to exclusively refer to the most expensive components/products. And that is what I think of when I think of "The High End".
     
  16. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Don't diss on people with Asperger's, dude. They usually have great attention to detail and make excellent work of whatever they set their minds to. Also, the term is a bit dated; you're looking for "high-functioning ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder)", though I understand the term comes with one hell of a stigma attached to it. Anyway, the insides are so sloppy I'd not even (REDACTED by vestigial sense of propriety).

    Moving back on topic, I'd say that the term "high-end" is used in the context of a product that is designed to have appreciably improved performance over the majority of commercial products, but is nonetheless designed to appeal to the mass-market affluent as opposed to end-game statement products. I agree that the Sennheiser HD800 falls under "high-end" even disregarding upstream components merely by virtue of the amount of genuine care that went into its design and crafting.

    The HE-1, I would argue, is more of a "statement" product not necessarily designed for the mass market; it's more of a culmination of all the manufacturer's skill and resources directed towards the creation of a product that may not necessarily sell in great quantity, but is proof of what can ultimately be done given contemporary technology. Other cans that fall under this post-high-end category (as far as I'm concerned) are the Sony R10, AKG K1000, HiFiMan Susvara, and perhaps the Focal Utopia, each of these a product of their time.

    Oh. Another thing that comes to mind. @Marvey recently said in another thread that he went past high-end speakers ages ago and is now more into "weird, non-conventional designs". That's a fairly accurate demarcation of my personal definition of high-end v. statement, which really does hinge on high-end being designed with some concern for mass-marketability.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    What exactly is not high-end in cost terms about ten thousand dollars. Above that is probably not so much high-end as silly-end!

    That makes sense. I would agree with most of non-financial suggestions as to what makes "high-end." Damned good and built to last. Cosmetics, milled from titanium, and all that stuff, makes for high prices, not necessarily high-end gear.
    That would be neat!
    The whole world of 6moons audio
     
  18. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Okay, fair enough, will edit and leave it as "built by a drunk money".
     
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    You must have noticed how, once something starts to go wrong....

    :pirate07:
     
  20. tomchr

    tomchr MOT - Neurochrome

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    True that. Asperger's was lumped in with ASD in the DSM-5.

    I'm still in shock that the Lampizator thing is an actual product. It looks like a poorly executed DIY project. Wow. I'm clearly not charging enough for my stuff... ;)

    Tom
     

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