WTF Revisited: Sennheiser HD700 Stories, Review, and Measurements

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by purr1n, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Last time I tried an HD700, it sounded like a banshee taking a shit.

    Seems it's discontinued.
     
  2. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I wouldn't immediately dismiss a dip in the treble having a correlation with subjective stage size. I know I get sharp dips at 8kHz and 12kHz with the HD800 measured at the ear canal opening. I think the important part here is hitting the exact frequency those dips would naturally be for your ears. So engineering a headphone with a dip at 10kHz might work for some people, but certainly not all. Engineering a headphone with enough distance between ear and driver to nearly naturally excite those resonances, well... then we're talking about the K1000, SR1a and possibly the HD800 (among others).

    HD600 and planars with fluffy pads don't have nearly as sharp dips IME. I do think there might be a correlation with similar dips and stage size. It's possible it works out to be 10kHz for their dummy head. I'll have a look at their data (and also my own) to see if I can find anything.

    I think aside from the bass shelf the Harman compensation used by rtings isn't half bad. Helps to overlay a planar with flat bass extension so you can visualize where neutral bass should be. I think the seal with their dummy head might be a bit optimistic aswell, but that's coming from someone wearing glasses, haha.
    Of course I wish there was an option to get rid of the bass shelf in their compensation.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's generational and cultural. The USA tends to have more space, hence more people will have had the luxury of growing up with speakers. It's generational is that younger people can't afford homes. When I got out of college in the early 90s, home ownership was a possibility in California if one pitched pennies and made it a priority. Today, home ownership is absolutely impossible unless one gets lucky or has rich parents.

    The fact is that folks who grew up using headphones or earbuds are probably going to be more in tune with headstage.
     
  4. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    Unlike the soundstage width, I know of no FR tricks that can actually improve the soundstage depth.

    IME the greater depth is usually associated with the resolving ability of a headphones (+ driver distance ofc).

    That common 10khz dip may help with the imaging. Like what @Vtory said in the ZMF Verite thread, those consecutive dips in the treble region maybe are acting like a filter, providing a blacker background -> easier imaging?.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I think you would need to present evidence rather than cherry pick data from one headphone. I could just as easily say that a narrow W pattern in the mid-treble (as opposed to 10kHz dip) is the magic sauce to awesome headstage.

    Yes, new SBAF theory on deep headstage: W response somewhere between 7kHz to 13kHz. Sounds like bullshit to me.

    Now you know why I'm dismissive. It's just grabbing shit outta our buttholes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
  6. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    I'm of the opinion that if stage is important to you and you cannot have speakers, the only answer is the SR1a (potentially also the MySphere stuff but I haven't heard those).

    I've said this before: as long as a headphone isn't offensively 2 or 3 blob in stage, I give it a pass. In the end it's a contest of "who sucks the least."

    The other possibility is that I'm deaf and can't hear what some of you hear (quite possible; I've never claimed to have golden ears or claimed my opinions on sound actually matter).

    Edit: I've never heard a HD700 and have never bothered to consider it as an option. It may have some redeeming qualities, but I'm convinced that it would annoy me to the ends of the earth.
     
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Head-stage FR dips and ridges = apologetically shitty sound.
     
  8. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Yes, I'm going to have a look at my data later today. May take a few days as I want to take more measurements and look for some correlation. It's possible it's cherry picked. I don't have so many measurements. The dips I see with the HD800 are far higher Q than those I get with speakers, so the theory may be bullshit anyway. Of course it depends on the angle so I'll need to gather more data. But I think that's how our brain "knows" where a sound source that's close to the ears sits. After all these are likely resonance between the driver and ear and volume resonances within the earcup.

    What I'm hoping to find is a correlation between headphones with smooth treble on a flat coupler or measured in free air (of which there are many) which to varying degrees excite these resonances when measured on a head (either dummy head or ear canal opening method) and subjective stage size. We'll see.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Here's a great measurement method to use to determine headstage, or at least variables. I don't have the exact formula:
    1. Width of driver
    2. Location of driver in front of the ear hole
    3. Location of driver to the side of the ear hole
    (FWIW, I think the SR1a drivers are placed too closely to the side of the head - I think it would image better if placed out a bit - they are already in front enough. HD800 drivers could do headstage better by being more out in front, but limitations.)
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I can buy the argument that if the headphone measured smooth on a FPC or FAC type coupler, but looked totally wiggly in the highs when measured with an artificial ear, then perhaps there may be something to it in terms of headstage. This isn't much different from my thinking where headphones that measure more differently on different type ears may do better with headstage, taking the example that planars didn't seem to care about the asymmetrical ears on the RANDY when a static compensation was applied vs. dynamics which I thought subjectively imaged well, where it was all over the place.

    Then again, why do EC amps with the HF filament heaters have much more expansive headstage than the Jot or Heresy at x1 gain? Why do some tubes like the EML solid plates, or x2 parallel tubes with interstage transformers, image more precisely?
     
  11. wadec22

    wadec22 Almost "Made"

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    man.... i would be shocked if FR consistently showed clues to head stage. in my experience;

    stage - related to venting behind the driver - air escaping and seeming to push sound out further from your ear. planar magnetic usually below avg, as their is a large diaphragm blocking the actual ear drum from the sound/air that escapes/travels behind. closed headphones with a more permeable wood material or gaps around cup enclosure,tend to have larger stages. in fact, I think I recall @purr1n showing how you can compare closed headphones by looking at CSD measurements and the cloudier measurement would end up showing a more boxy or closed in feeling. i'm probably messing that up......

    imaging - combination of; driver resolution capability, angled drivers (helps put an actual speaker like stage in front of you) and lack of cross feed.

    just my experience though. fascinated by the concept in general.
     
  12. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I looked through some of my data and it's really not conclusive at all. I also looked through the RTings data and could not find at all what they wrote regarding the 10kHz dip, but they also haven't really measured many headphones with good imaging, so there's just not enough data to be sure.
    I also don't think IF or EARS data is that useful in that regard since the dummy heads are likely not accurate enough to get realistic interactions at higher frequencies. Maybe in the future when I have some more time for that.

    Can you point me to which headhones you are talking about specifically? It does seem to make sense to me, in a way.

    I wonder if that would also pose other problems with perceived channel matching, however or if it "corrects" channel matching if those headphones are closer to far-field sources.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Verum/LCD* vs Senn HD*** series on RANDY (asymmetrical ears) was a good example of this. Data sets too small and most I've probably trashed. Would be interesting to further explore.
     
  14. Player

    Player Possible Troll / Argument Shifter

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    i looked at the measurements for most headphones. i also listened to a lot of headphones. through my research i found dt990 250ohm with "worn pads" to have the smoothest sound signature on the market. scientifically everything else is inferior... dt990 250 ohm do have too much mud at 200Hz and not enough bass extension but they are open backs so i guess you cant blame them for sucking in the deep bass department. I'd like someone to prove me wrong lol.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/afcv3lfncnl9mwk/Beyerdynamic DT990 (Old Earpads).pdf?dl=0

    Fresh earpads make them more strident and have sibilant problems which im sure most of you used to dismiss them before going on to buy worse headphones:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/gryfjs3i30c7r5h/Beyerdynamic DT990 (new earpads).pdf?dl=0

    Here is the goofy sennheiser hd 700 in comparison with its hilarious ravaged response above 1kHz:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/k83iaf5mvnmcwut/Sennheiser HD700 (preliminary).pdf?dl=0
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    What do your ears tell you?

    FYI: SBAF frowns on the Harmon curve here - too much bass and upper-mids on up. Our preference is something more neutral when words like "smooth" are used. My ears tell me that the DT-990-250 are very bright in the mid to high treble. It also depends upon what you mean by smooth.

    You are wrong. Pads do make a difference, but they don't make that much of a difference to overcome below.

    DT-990-250
    [​IMG]

    HD700
    [​IMG]

    BTW, even the link you provided, which uses the Harmon curve (V-shaped with emphasized lows and highs) suggests a huge cut in the highs:

    Old earpads
    upload_2020-8-28_12-27-57.png

    Again, it depends what you mean by smooth, which I am taking to be the opposite of "strident and have sibilant problems".
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  16. Player

    Player Possible Troll / Argument Shifter

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    [​IMG]

    HD700:
    Warm, Muddy, Scooped high mids in a jarring fashion giving a uncomfortable soundstage. Overbearing 6kHz peak.

    DT990 250 Ohm:
    Muddy, Slightly lumpy 3-5kHz that is more than tolerable.
     
  17. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    I dunno bout that man. Had a pair for years and while pairings can help, "smooth" is never the word I'd use...

    Just... nah. They're the reason I became team dark. Not terrible, sometimes fun. Still verrry bright, even with worn pads. Great for gaming. Those same peaks that make them fatiguing with music also help with hearing the subtle sounds around you and give a clearer sense of directionality. Though even then, its just the upper fr emphasis bringing those sounds up. You will find cloisters of competitive gamers out there who swear by them for that alone.

    If that's the tuning you like, thats fair, but I dont think too many dt990 users out there would ever claim it was a smooth or balanced sound. Nor does it need to be.
     
  18. netforce

    netforce MOT: Headphones.com

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    Been a while since I heard or saw the measurements of the HD700. It looks as unpleasant as memory served. I remember back in 2018 I had a guy ask me if I can still order one for him and I wondered why in the hell would he want it. Thankfully it was long discontinued by then.

    One of my best memories of CanJam SoCal 2014 was going to dinner, group of 20 of us following Tyll to a TGI Fridays for dinner. And halfway into dinner a drunk Tyll shouting across the table, "THE HD700 MEASURES LIKE SHIIIIIIIT!"

    I miss Tyll
     
  19. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Given how people's ears generally aren't symmetrical to begin with how much benefit would there be to ensuring that fake pinnae on test rigs are actually mirror images of one another outside of testing channel matching in higher frequencies (presuming impeccable replication of placement)? If brain grows accustomed to compensating for imbalances in physiology then how far-fetched would it be to believe that the brain would then apply those same compensations to the detriment of well-matched personal audio transducers?

    Yeah seems like it may be worth looking into fake asymmetrical ears after all. The headphonetestlab site I stumbled across a bit ago appears to use asymmetrical ears (GRAS KB5000 & KB5001) and headphones I've heard and thought had good imaging (HD800S, TH900, HP-3, ADX5000) all do seem to measure with discrepancies between the 6kHz-10kHz region implying greater interaction with pinnae, but I'd really rather like to try and replicate for self with less superlative gear. Should be noted that differences between channels on HD800S were tiny compared to on other cans (but I do consider them more diffuse sounding than the Klipsches).

    Diaphragm size being positively correlated with sonic "images" holds up in my limited experience with both planars and dynamics, but delineation of those images almost always seem to favour dynamic designs for whatever reason. Maybe the fact that there's more of a "sweet spot" for drivers relative to ear position means that sonic images may appear to "shrink" but in exchange have better contrast between the object-in-headspace and background. Even planars with good headstage e.g. Susvara all had some sense of ethereality.

    ^above all in the context of my main rigs at home having been mid-fi at best and even in demo settings I don't get to spend much time with nice upstreams.

    As for IEMs, most of the "nice" ones I've tried e.g. Andromeda,Solaris, Parterre, Layla 2, 64 Audio+ADEL (can't remember model) all had exceptional imaging relative to circumaurals regardless of driver type used, and I wonder whether it's to do with how as many external factors as can be bypassed are bypassed save for hearing damage or ear canal blockages, thereby guaranting that experience is more tightly regulated. Then again, problem of personal transfer function editorialising crops up again.

    https://www.researchgate.net/public...trical_Human_Ears_on_the_Front-Back_Confusion

    The above serves to reinforce the importance of material 7kHz and above in sound localisation, not to mention note that asymmetry in ears actually seems to reduce front/back confusion rate i.e. localisation for sound cues emanating from the front. Just the one study after a quick search, will be looking into others if I can find any.

    This is why I get grumpy with overly-smoothened plots.

    EDIT for below: f**k YEAH DT880.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In terms of "smooth" (lack of jaggies, up and downs), DT880-250 wins over DT990-250.

    DT880-250 CSD
    [​IMG]

    DT990-250 CSD
    [​IMG]

    Extra one : BP800 (note uniform decay and lower amplitude peaks and valleys)
    [​IMG]
     

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