Garage 1217 Project Sunrise Thoughts and Distortion Surface: SINAD can suck it

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by purr1n, Dec 21, 2023.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
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    I was reminded the other day that I had this amp in my care when @Luckbad popped up after an absence. @Luckbad actually wrote a comprehensive article on how to put this darn thing together here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...project-horizon-iii-project-sunrise-iii.1478/

    IMG_1557.jpg

    I had compared this amp to two hybrid other inexpensive amps a few years ago. I felt it definitely had its place back then and even now it's a contender. The downside to the Project Sunrise is that there's a bit more elbow grease with respect to having to set bias and deal with jumpers, The upside is that people who love to mess with stuff or like to roll tubes can have a lot of fun.

    I know this has been asked: what about the Ember? Well the Ember sucks ass. Even @Elmer Danilovich has moved on form the Ember. I don't remember the schematics well, but I believe the Ember has an OPA541 chip in unity gain as output buffer. The means high open loop gain and probably 120db of negative feedback locally (assuming since the input tube will have decent gain - and headphones don't need it). The Sunrise has a single output device (MOSFET?) running single-ended. Downsides is that it's cap coupled on the input and output. I tried the Sunrise without the input caps by lifting the jumpers (downside is scratch pot), but I did not like the sound: too grainy. The input caps impart a slight veil. Also the treble sounded more grainy than what I remember**, but this could be matter of source and different bias setting (there is an ideal bias point, but ultimately it's subjective within certain a range).

    What I was really interested in was a distortion surface measurement, which seems to have ruffled some feathers. I'm not sure why people are against this because we get a lot more information that better distinguishes gear. We've seen some results from transformer coupled tube amps already*, so I thought it would be interesting to show distortion surface from a hybrid (tube input and solid state output) amp such as this. Note that this amp isn't very powerful either (the Sunrise is the less powerful variant of the Horizon), so this would be another angle.

    *I should provide a full set for the SW51, an output transformer coupled amp to compare.
    **I found out why, I just came from the Pietius Maximus, so had to adjust.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2023
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I ran the following with a 300-ohm load. FWIW, I didn't see any worse results with a 32-ohm load with spot measurements, so I may not bother. It does mean that that 32-ohm load results won't be any worse or maybe just slightly worse than this. The amp doesn't mind 32-ohm loads. It's just the design of it.

    G1217 Project Horizon Headphone Amplifier
    • 300-ohm load
    • 90kHz bandwidth
    • Low input gain
    • 1.5R output impedance
    • Russian 6DJ8/6922 type 6V tube
    • APx555 "cheat" HPSA mode on
    • Volume knob of headphone amp was set for unity gain
    • Gen level to amp inputs then set on the APx555 to arrive at desired output from amp
    Second Harmonic Distortion Product
    upload_2023-12-21_20-52-10.png

    Oh noes! How horrible! What a piece of shit. In most instances, we will see distortion go down (because of increasing dynamic range) and then start rise. This just shoots up and up.

    If Amir saw this, no doubt he would exclaim incompetence upon the designer of the Project Sunrise amp! (Except he wouldn't because the designer is a senior member at ASR. Amir would pull his punches.) The fact remains, the Project Sunrise is one of my Garage 1217 favorites.

    Also, let's look at from a more reasonable perspective. Most headphones will be used with loud listening near -12dBu and normal listening well below that from -18db to -30db where things are yellow and green. It's absolutely fair to say that the Sunrise commits sins of commission, but it's not nearly as bad as we think. Note that this scale doesn't get anywhere near the 2Vrms used by ASR because 0dBu is 0.775 is like 100db with a Sennheiser HD650 and will make you deaf quickly. As @atomicbob says "2Vrms is not a good place to be" (for the vast majority of headphones).

    Besides we also need to consider more harmful 3rd and higher harmonics. So the story is not complete yet!

    Third Harmonic Distortion Product
    upload_2023-12-21_20-56-37.png

    Hmm, now this is interesting. This is what we would typically expect. It's not the lowest in the world, but it's decent, good actually. Let's check out H4-H20 next.

    Sum of 4th-20th Distortion Product
    upload_2023-12-21_20-57-9.png

    COMMENTARY:
    • It's fair to say that while the Project Sunrise is a high distortion amp, most of the distortion is in the second harmonic. The Sunrise sounds good although it's a bit veiled from the cap coupling. I wouldn't even say that it sounds pleasant because pleasant can have a negative connotation (too soft, gooey, tubey). The Sunrise sounds lively and immediate.
    • It's been said that the second harmonic is less harmful because it the harmonic closest to the fundamental. Maybe there is something to this.
    • The distortion is fairly even from lows to highs. It's solid-state output and there's no output transformer at the end which may raise distortion in the lows at higher levels.

    Notes:
    H2, H3, and H4+ above do not include the noise component
    H2 and H3 tend to be dominant over the higher orders, additional graphs will be added if this is not the case
    H2 and H3 do sound different from each other, as to how, that's another discussion
    H4+, the higher order distortions can be considered to be "crap" factor
    There is thought that higher order distortion may have an outsized negative affect on sound quality
    THD+N does include the noise component as well as THD (sum of H2, H3, and H4 and above)
    Distortion is signal that is not supposed to be there
    These graphs tells us how loud the distortion is at that harmonic (freq) vs output level (dBu)
    H2 or second order at 100Hz means there is stuff at 200Hz that is not supposed to be there
    H3 or third order at 100Hz means there is stuff at 300Hz that is not supposed to be there
    Distortion that lands in the ultrasonic region matters, if SOTA chip companies like TI care, then so should you
    0dBu (0.775Vrms) output level on most headphones will cause hearing damage after a few minutes of exposure
    0dBu output level may burn out the voice coil on sensitive headphones with extended use
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Just a quick reality check on the spectrum analyzer to confirm high distortion even at low levels, but primarily second order, same parameters as above. AC mains can be an issue with higher sensitivity headphones.

    1Khz -10dBu
    upload_2023-12-21_21-28-10.png

    -20dBu
    upload_2023-12-21_21-35-25.png

    1MHz bandwidth. Note high frequency spikes near 325kHz, 650kHz, and 975kHz. Some audio designers and audiophiles feel switching frequency below 1MHz needs to be cleaned up, the closer to the audio band, the worse it will have an affect on sound quality.
    upload_2023-12-21_21-30-43.png

    One day, I will test with Noise Nuke.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2023
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    THD (total harmonic) and THD+Noise
    ezgif-5-5206b8fa3e.gif

    At first glance, this may seem kind of odd. However, we already know that the second harmonic is "sticky" regardless of output level. As we go lower in output level, at some point we start hitting the noise component (noise floor and AC mains hum), hence why THD+N has kind of a U shape from low levels to high level. As noted previously, the distortion is fairly even from throughout the audio band.

    --

    The above is taking the playbook of overlaying THD+N over THD in 2D graphs, but applying it to the 3D distortion surface presentation. If anything, this gives us an interesting perspective:
    1. Perhaps THD+N or SINAD is not the end-all-be all. According to purely THD+N, the Project Sunrise is defective and should be thrown into the rubbish bin. The designer is an idiot who should be tarred and feathered, and then maybe drawn and quartered.
    2. Heck, maybe even THD by itself without the noise component, that is without further qualification and breakdown into more distinct harmonic components, doesn't tell us the entire story.
    THD+N and even THD do tell us something, but it just doesn't quite work in this case.

    In a nutshell:

    THD+N / SINAD can suck my balls.

    The Sunrise while it commits sins of commission subjectively (not as much as the above measurements would suggest) is a really really good sounding amp with high levels of engagement. Kudos and praise to the designer.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 22, 2023
  5. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Didn't know you had the Sunrise as well as the Horizon, nice!

    Back when I was mainly swapping between the Klipsch HP-3 and the DT880, I found that I generally preferred the sound of the Sunrise with caps bypassed. It definitely made for an airier treble presentation, but the Beyers were smooth despite their FR elevation, and I got lucky with channel balance being fine still at lower volume knob positions. I feel like tube swapping is a big deal on this amp, the Genalex 6922 offset that coarseness in a big way, plus it was leaner in the low end which worked wonders with those two headphones.

    It was pretty scarily good overall with the Klipsches honestly, though I think the OG Bifrost MB's haziness muddled things up a bit. I mainly let go of the amp for a pittance cuz I didn't want to have to deal with the cost of 6922s at the time— image how I feel about their prices now!

    @atomicbob has a great suite of measurements showing how having a noise nuke or LPS feeding the Sunrise, but would definitely be grand to see distortion surface on here.

    @purr1n very interesting to see how this amp is a perfect example of that "saturation" effect at higher SPLs with D2 and D3. Kinda explains why going from this to a Liquid Carbon was a bit fatiguing, this very much pillows things despite how much it made the HP-3s kick it looks like.

    Also your JIF link is busted.
     
  6. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    I have an old Sunrise in a travel box I'm happy to let others enjoy, if there's interest.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Fixed animated gif.

    Yes, it has that saturation deal. A major difference from a transformer coupled amp is that the effect happens more in the lows with those. A minor difference is that the Sunrise distortion is very much second order.

    Does anyone know the part number for the power switch? It's busted - so I jam it into the on position.
     
  8. TheloniuSnoop

    TheloniuSnoop Friend

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  9. Elmer Danilovich

    Elmer Danilovich MOT:Earmen, HeadAmp, Bricasti; AKA:MShenay

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    Yo that's one heck of a deeeeeeeep cut, yea the Ember II isn't all that amazing, fun and powerful sure. All in all I should have just bought a Sunrise all those years ago!

    Excellent write-up up tho happy to see an updated set of measurements, here's to hoping the G1217 guy(s) launch something new here soon.


    I had a chance to hear all of their amps at one point, and I always enjoyed the sound more with all of the Bypass'es in place.
     
  10. ecline56

    ecline56 Almost "Made"

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    I own all the 1217 amps except the Horizon and the entry level Starlight. I concur that the Sunrise 3 is the best sounding to my ears. I like the amp using a GE or Sylvania black plate 5670/2C51 tube/adapter. My usual favorite the 7N7 does not mate well with this amp for my tastes. The 7N7 makes the Surise 3 too lazy and slow sounding. Sunrise 3 is not the most powerful amp and has trouble driving my MP M1070's.

    The Ember 2 can sound very good with the right input tube. In my case that is the Sylvania 7N7 (6SN7GT) tall bottle tube/ adapter. The 7N7 opens up the sound stage, relaxes the amp and smooths over most of the rough edges. If you listen to the Ember 2 with 9 pin tubes the sound is very disappointing; flat and mechanical sounding. Try a 7N7 or a good 6SN7 and you will be surprised. The Ember 2 can drive all my headphones easily.

    The Solstice is also very good. Using the 12SN7 tube option I get excellent results. The amp is using a Tung Sol black glass round plate right now. With this tube I rate the Solstice ahead of the Ember 2 for sound quality. Just a very nice, open, dynamic sound. This amp also has enough power for my MP M1070's.

    The Polaris is a good amp; especially with the Senn 58x/600 series. The ability to change so many parameters allows you to tailor the sound to your liking. But not having a tube input stage and the same Ember 2 output stage limits your results. I still prefer the Polaris amp to an Asgard 3 I have and any of the Schitt Magni amps. But, I like the entry level MP Liquid Spark better than the Polaris. But, I also like the Spark noticeably better than the Piety too. The Liquid spark is the best $100 bucks you will ever spend on a headphone amp IMO.

    All the 1217 amps have excellent dynamics from the tube input stage.
    All the amps have been bullet proof.
    The Sunrise 3 sounds best to me with the caps bypassed. I have never made a bypass comparison with the Ember 2. Bypass caps are enabled on my Ember 2. The Solstice caps cannot be bypassed.
    All the amps need a tube with matched triodes or the sound is out of balance L/R. I use an inexpensive balance control to match L/R.
    All the amps have a little hum when you use high sensitivity/ low impedance headphones.
    The 5670's seem to have the best balanced triode sections and none have required me to use the balance control. The 7N7's have the worst triode matching and my tubes require the balance control every time.

    Balance control: no sonic penalty and does exactly what I want the control to do ....

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/need-a-good-balance-control.13035/

    I want to be a pyrate!
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2023
  11. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    A blast from the past! I don't know if I ever linked this here, but I put together a rather mediocre build video of the Project Sunrise several years back for anyone interested in getting the parts kit.

     

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