SBAF DAC Talk II

I’m considering a new DAC. I’ve been using a Metrum Amethyst for the last 5 years or so. I recently tried a set of totally wireless/internally amp’d speakers for a year or so and they didn’t work out for me, so now I’m re-assembling my main rig and re-evaluating my DAC choices.

I have really enjoyed the Amethyst. Timbre, tonality, and attack sounds natural to me, which is an important aspect to me as I play instruments (as a hobby, trumpet since a kid and guitar since adulthood). It has never been a super detail champ, and I sometimes don’t love the presentation which is “performers in my room” vs “me in the recording room with the performers.” Sometimes I like a more cerebral approach. But overall I’ve liked it a lot and not really felt the itch for more until this re-visit and having been used to a very different style for a year.

Metrum of course hasn’t done much of anything since the kerfluffle and Ceres’ new venture, and I see very mixed reviews of the Sonnet stuff. I have some Dac3 modules coming, but see mixed feeling about those, as well. Maybe they’re not the “make an Amethyst a Jade!” As Metrum suggests.

I’ve been wanting to hear a Yggdrasil, so that’s on the list. Probably OG or LIM. Probably a no-brainer due to Schiit’s excellent return policy.

audial S5 is interesting. Would love thoughts. Probably return options aren’t good if I don’t like it.

I’ve thought about Soekris but those seem hard to get.

I’d like more insight, more “space between the notes” and more of a sense of digging deep into the bits. Would like a better sense of the recording space and interactions within it. Source is Bluesound Node, Qobuz and a bunch of files on a USB drive.

I welcome thoughts, and/or recommendations of others to shortlist!

 

SFD-2 MkII? More resolve than SFD-1, more clarity, but keeps the same house sound (which I've heard is similar in some ways to Metrum & NOS DACs in general), same Ultra Analog chip (unlike the Processor 3/SFD-3), and still serviced—and able to be upgraded internally—by Parts Connexion in Canada today.

 

Nothing fancy - the cheapest model you can get that comes with a switch attached. (More info here). As far as I know, spending more money, or buying something like an EMIA or iC0n, you get the same basic autoformer, and the only benefit is better switches, different attenuation tapers and for some, the option to use silver wire instead of copper. But for $400 and a little soldering, I'm very happy. The Decware has been a picky amp to pair with a preamp, but it sounds sublime with the Slagleformer. I've also used it between different amps and sources with high input sensitivities and hot outputs to get a better match, and to add a balance control, and it's always a net positive sonically. If you get an AVC from Slagle, and discover you don't like it, I suspect it'd be very easy to sell.

And thanks for the MHDT recommendation. I'm definitely a "musical over resolution" kind of listener, so suspect I'd enjoy it. And agreed on old school gear - there's an EAD DSP-7000 dac in the corner of that pic. It's not NOS, but vintage for a DAC, and so far, I'm loving it. Definitely some value to be found in older DACs.

Since we're talking about NOS DACs, though, I've got a question for folks. I've got a Bifrost 2 OG, and haven't updated the firmware. If I were to, and to put it into NOS mode, would that be a pretty good indicator whether or not I'd enjoy some of these other NOS DACs we're talking about? I skimmed the Bifrost 2 thread, and, it seems most folks don't like NOS mode, regardless of OG or 2/64, but didn't really see anyone compare it to DACs intended to be used in NOS mode from the outset. Thanks!

 

Good call-out. Waaaay back in my Sonic Memory is listening to and enjoying SF stuff at a long-defunct audio shop I frequented. Might be tough to find one, but I’ll start looking. Thanks for the idea.

 

Not even close. NOS on BF2 is like the convenience jack on a Jot 2, or if you really wanna be uncharitable, VU meters on an amp, and imo, is there just to flex Schiit's upsampling prowess.

True NOS DACs sound much, much different, you won't get much of an idea of how you like NOS DACs, vintage or modern, based on NOS mode on any DAC, really, imho.

 

I hate to sound like a dick and point out things but .. the SE jack on Jot 2 is not a convenience jack at all. Now if you said that about the liquid platinum you would be 100% correct. Sorry to butt in.

 

u right, my bad, i shoulda said the LAuX, i just didn't like it, and that was the first example that popped into my head.

 

I dont know about your budget but I see you already enjoy the Timbre, tonality of Metrum DAC. You won't go wrong with Sonnet Pasithea. You will get same Tonality, Timbre with good details and bigger stage.

 

I've owned just one multi-bit DAC, the now discontinued Audio GD DAC-19 (easily the biggest seller in that company's history). It sounded great to me, though I eventually sold it in favor of true NOS DACs (I own 2 currently and sold the other, the Audio GD NOS-19).

So some knowledge, though hardly extensive.

The DAC-19 has an NOS mode, but on the very long and detailed thread for that device, there were many complaints from people who'd gone awry trying to use that setting (problems specific to that unit & its mechanism of "Jumpers" to change sonic flavor). Problems aside, that implementation did not result in true NOS, something the designer freely spoke of.

My observations of NOS DACs are these:

• Their individual sound profiles vary, as one would expect (implementation is everything in audio)
• But as a group, they sound less "digital" than any DACs I'd heard previously. They seem to have zero spashy sheen on treble tranisients like rimshots & cymbals; tend to sound more true to the timbre of actual voices and instruments; have better, foundational bass that is proportional to the rest of the spectrum (ie, not slamming way harder than the DAC as a whole); have far better, more realistic reproduction of individual notes (which have body & don't sound like cardboard cutouts) & harmonic content
• They also reproduce space realistically--but usually that means soundstaging isn't as stretched/wide as it can get with delta-sigma DACs
  
• And finally, the deepest sub-bass may or may not be present as one is accustomed to from delta-sigma DACs. But in any event, whatever bass quantity there is, is also more realistic and qualitatively more pleasing, at least to me

I had suffered with "digital" sound starting in the early '80s, so I know a life-preserver when one is tossed to me, and that's true NOS DACs. Like others here, I wouldn't mind exploring a bit more resolution, but I wouldn't sacrifice the musicality I'm getting from my current NOS DACs to get it.

I see in my future better-designed & implemented NOS DACs that will probably cost more, but have somewhat elevated NOS sound as I've come to know it.

 

For Bifrost 2/64 the NOS mode was good enough to get me thinking about whether hearing a really good NOS DAC would be worth my time at some point. The OS burrito is more capable (balanced Liquid Platinum specifically got me to appreciate some of what it can do - otherwise I might be closer to "different, not better"), but the NOS is different and not bad-sounding. I didn't like it on original flavor BF2, but it seems to work for some people there.

I mean, it's a free firmware update for something you already have. You might as well try it if you're curious, you can't get a better deal in audio gear auditioning.

 

I had a bit of a negative impression of Cees' Sonnet Morpheus from earlier thread skimming, but I'll go have another read, especially about Pasithea. Same tonality and timbre with better detail and stage sounds great to me.

 

I see a couple Friends are running the MDHT Orchid. Anyone still rate it? An interesting option, but doesn't seem to come in a balanced out version? I'm trying to maintain as much gain as I can for the Susvara.

Also looking at Audio Note DACs, but I find AN UK's very confusing set of offerings kind of headache-inducing. Plus, their pricing is pretty near opaque.

 

For the longest time there was one MHDT Labs balanced DAC, the balanced version of the Pagoda (links below). Not entirely sure it's current...you'd have to check w/the mfr (pleasant to deal with in my experience). You could also look for one used. Interestingly, the output voltage is stated only for the single-ended outputs (2.6V). Most balanced DACs have nearly twice the voltage output via balanced outputs. I've never heard the Pagoda. It uses different R2R chips than the Orchid and is said to sound somewhat more neutral.

http://mhdtlab.com/Pagoda balanced.htm
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-mhdt-lab-balanced-pagoda-dac

A word about the Orchid, a lovely sounding DAC which responds so well to rolling quality NOS tubes in the buffer circuit & just sits there toiling away 12 hrs/day, 7 days/week, for years: it's output via single-ended RCAs is 3.0 volts. That's 50% higher than the nominal output voltage standard for single-ended DACs. As a result I've wrestled with gain issues & signal attenuation ever since I installed the Orchid in the big office system (it's well worth the trouble). So compare 3.0 volts to whatever DAC you're currently using...if it's significantly more, an Orchid may be the ticket for you (this also depends on the design of the downstream amp, whether it accepts balanced inputs or not).

 

Hmm, interesting. That's a pretty high SE output. I'm running the Ferrum Oor/Hypsos. I assume it could take a hotter SE signal.

Did you end up putting resistors in front of the amp?

 

Not sure what you mean. Are you referring to soldering appropriate resistors to L & R sides of the output (internal)? Or external attenuators?

Actually, I did neither. I am lucky to have as my main amp/preamp, the Violectric V281. This device has an unusual array of input/output settings to address issues like this. For example, there are separate dip-switch arrays for attenuating the headphone outputs vs the preamp outputs. I have both arrays set to -12 dB. That pretty much takes care of the Orchid problem: as the V281 is my primary headphone amp and as a preamp, it also drives the electronic crossover that connects to a big class D amp, pair of passive speakers and subwoofer.

 

Sorry, think I mean attenuators, yeah. Thanks for the info. I think I might be looking for something more plug and play, but the Orchid is still going into my Hifishark list.

 

HA! Mine has a ridiculous # of things on it. Latest addition: Wells Milo. Anybody got one F.S.?

 

I have a Metrum Adagio, Forte and Ambre in my speaker system. All excellent. You could consider an Onyx, which is a superb Metrum DAC.

However, in my headphone system I have a new Denafrips Ares II 12th Anniversary Edition, with Iris DDC. So cheap. Amazing SQ. Very, very good.

 

I have thought about another Metrum. Do you have e DAC2 or 3 modules?

Denafrips is so cheap I might buy it regardless, to try vs whatever else I get.

 

I have DAC 2 modules. Metrum rarely have stock of the DAC 3 modules, and when they do the cost is insane. No proper upgrade, you just have to pay full price.