SBAF isn’t the loaner program

Discussion in 'Rules, Payments, and Other' started by SoupRKnowva, Aug 25, 2022.

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  1. SoupRKnowva

    SoupRKnowva Official SBAF South Korean Ambassador

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    The loaner program used to be a thing that wasnt even called a "program", it just sorta happened sometimes. Things would go out on tours, and people would listen to them and write impressions. At some point along the way, it transitioned from being these little extra bonuses, to being a huge production. With lots of loaners happening all the time, to the point that I think there was some loaner fatigue.

    @rhythmdevils honestly, I think you should have quit being the gearmaster quite a while ago. I think the main reason this blew up the way it has was because you are too heavily invested in running the loaner program, you've lost sight of its humble grass roots beginnings, and because of this any critique of your plan was seen as a personal attack of some sort, which they were not. There was no disrespect on my part, and from what I saw on none of the parts of anyone. All of us were merely disagreeing with you on the direction of the program.

    Some obeservations of the loaner program. Several times I have seen you complain that people aren’t signing up for loaners. This isn't a critique of the community, it's a sign that you were taking the loaner program too seriously and getting loaners that people didnt have any interest in. Work less man. Sometimes I saw you mention than Company X, wouldnt let us loan out Product Y (that we actually wanted), unless we loaned out Product Z (that we didnt want), first. You know what? you tell them to pound sand, we just don't get that loaner.

    This forum isnt the loaner program. If we miss out on a loaner cause the company doesnt want to play ball, so be it. This isnt a failing on your part, or whoever is the gearmaster at that time. It’s just the way it is sometimes. No one joined this forum just so they could borrow kilo-buck DACs for free...and if they did, I would not so politely ask them to vacate the premises. The loaner program is a neat cherry on top of an excellent community. Not the main attraction.

    A community that is built on a few founding principles. Things like never being afraid to call a spade a spade. One of the reasons this forum(or maybe more accurately changstar) was created was we were f'ing tired of the limitations on what could be said at head-fi so Jude could appease his advertisers.


    Here we are going to get to some more tough love and the crux of this entire issue. Your original post might be gone, which is shameful, another thing we don't do here is delete content just because we don't like it, but I will address the heart of the post.

    You thought we should go easy on vendors just because they were sending us equipment for free. I know you spent the rest of that thread after it was split off trying to backpedal, claiming that it wasn’t censorship, but it was. There were also other members in that thread trying to defend the behavior. I find the entire concept of this revolting, this is exactly the sort of thing we have made fun of other sites/blogs/influencers/etc for doing. Favorable press for free shit. I know youre intentions were in the right place, you wanted more loaners. But at what cost? You can’t betray the heart and soul of this forum and think it was going to go over with no push back. It's also clear that a lot of users agreed with me judging on the reactions to me and Elnrik's posts.

    Any vendor that sends us a loaner needs to understand the way this commnunity operates, and if they aren't down with that, then we just dont get that loaner, I don't see any problem with that, and I think many would agree with me, it also means less work for the gearmaster! The community comes first here and free shit comes second. Many vendors will still be willing to send things out for loaners, because they are confident in the product, or they want the blunt and constructive feedback the members here will provide, Austin Audio Works is an excellent example of this, or someone like Schiit. And if no one signs up for a loaner, its unreasonable to complain about it, people will sign up for the loaners they wish to, move on to another loaner if there isnt enough interest.


    Now for the real tough love. The outcomes of that thread. My ban was a farce and @rhythmdevils and whoever else instigated it should promptly have their staff privileges revoked. This has proven they lack the reason and maturity required to be a member of staff and in order to restore confidence in the staff of this forum they should be removed. My reply, quoted fully here:

    was in no way a personal attack or even unreasonable. It was a perfectly civil disagreement with the plan as proposed. We cannot allow this sort of institutional rejection of opposing ideas, this is some absolutely Judian level bullshit that no one here should be in support of.

    I love everything SBAF stands for and the community we have built here, and I will not hesitate to object to things I see as counter to our roots. I won’t storm off in a huff if I don’t get my way, but I also won’t hold back from voicing my displeasure, and the fact that someone clearly thought it was ok to put me and others in timeout just for disagreeing is very worrying, and something I do hope won’t occur again.
     
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  2. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    You make me sick. You still refuse to listen to me or @ChaChaRealSmooth in our MANY attempts to clarify this. This paragraph is a farce, and is not correct in any way. You call it backpedaling, as if there is some kind of cover up here. This is not f'ing Qanon. We were clarifying your misunderstanding of how the loaner program has been run since it's inception. Also, No posts were deleted. I did edit my first post about this to make it more clear and accurate to try to avoid further confusion but I did not delete it.

    I will now type in all caps so maybe you will READ.

    I WAS ONLY TALKIG ABOUT THE FIRST POST IN A NEW REVIEW THREAD FOR A LOANER. THAT IS ALL. AND YOU CAN POST NEGATIVES ABOUT THE PRODUCT IN THIS FIRST REVIEW POST, THE FIRST POST JUST CAN'T BE A "THIS IS SHIT" REVIEW. ANY OF THE OTHER POSTS IN THE REVIEW THREAD FOR ANY LOANER CAN BE A "THIS IS SHIT" REVIEW IF THAT'S HOW YOU HONESTLY FEEL. I AND DAN BOTH REPEATED THIS AD NUSEUM IN THAT THREAD. YET YOU REFUSED TO LISTEN OR EVEN TRY TO UNDERSTAND. THAT IS WHY YOU WERE BANNED. AND I'M TEMPTED TO BAN YOU AGAIN FOR RE HASHING THIS AND STILL FAILING TO EVEN TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS WE WERE ASKING AFTER WE EXPLAINED IT ABOUT 15 TIMES IN AS MANY WAYS AS WE COULD.

    HERE IT IS AGAIN:
    • THE FIRST POST IN A LOANER REVIEW THREAD CANNOT BE A "THIS IS SHIT" REVIEW. IT MUST BE MORE ABOUT WHAT SBAF MIGHT THINK OF THE GEAR AND NOT JUST WHAT THE PARTICULAR REVIEWER THINKS.
    • IF THE FIRST REVIEWER OF A LOANER THINKS THAT EVERYONE ON SBAF WILL THINK THE GEAR IS SHIT, AND THINKS IT'S SHIT THEMSELVES, WE DO THE VENDOR/MANUFACTURER THE COURTESY OF SENDING IT BACK INSTEAD OF DOING A LOANER OF SOMETHING NO ONE WILL LIKE. SOME PEOPLE CLAIMED THERE WAS "WORTH TO HEARING BAD GEAR" BUT NO ONE WOULD SIGN UP FOR A LOANER AFTER A TERRIBLE REVIEW ANYWAYS. THERE IS VERY LITTLE LOSS HERE EXCEPT THE KNOWLEDGE THAT SOMETHING IS SHIT. THAT IS A CONCESSION WE MAKE IN EXCHANGE FOR FREE GEAR. THIS IS DIPLOMATIC. IT IS A MIDDLE WAY BETWEEN TWO EXTREMES. IT IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO THIS. YOU CAN GO TO HEAD-FI OR ASR IF YOU PREFER THE OTHER EXTREMES.
    • EVERY OTHER REVIEW IN THE THREAD CAN SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT INCLUDING "THIS IS SHIT"
    • THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY CENSORSHIP ON SBAF AND NEVER WILL BE. POSTS ARE NOT DELETED THEY ARE MOVED TO THE "HOW TO WIN FRIENDS SECTION" IF THEY ARE BULLSHIT. AS WILL THIS POST.
    • THIS IS SIMPLY ABOUT DIPLOMACY AND COURTESY TO VENDORS AND MANUFACTURERS WHO SEND US GEAR FOR FREE. IF YOU WANT TO SEND US $500,000 FOR A LOANER FUND SO WE CAN BUY ALL OUR OWN GEAR GO AHEAD AND WE CAN SHIT ON EVERYTHING ANYWHERE. THAT'S A LOT TO SPEND ON ONE POST.
    • YOU CAN SHIT ON GEAR IF THAT'S HOW YOU FEEL IN LITERALLY ANY POST ON SBAF OTHER THAN THE FIRST REVIEW POST OF A LOANER PIECE OF GEAR. THAT'S ONE f'ing POST!
    • THE LOANER PROGRAM CANNOT CONTINUE WITHOUT SOME DIPLOMACY LIKE THIS, IT IS THE ONLY WAY, IT IS A MIDDLE WAY BETWEEN TWO EXTREMES NEITHER OF WHICH ARE NECESSARY TO MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF SBAF. AND THIS DIPLOMACY ALLOWS MEMBERS TO HEAR A LOT OF GEAR IN THEIR HOMES WITHOUT US SELLING OUT TO ANYONE INCLUDING VENDORS/COMPANIES (HEAD-FI) OR THE COMMUNITY ITSELF (ASR)
    A few more things:
    • SBAF is not the loaner program, I agree. But SBAF is the content posted on the site, and Marv cannot be the only one posting content of value. The Loaner program allows members to hear a huge variety of gear in their own homes, which allows them to contribute content to SBAF they otherwise would not be able to contribute, which does help define SBAF.
    • You were not banned for disagreeing with how SBAF was being run, that is indeed ok to do in a respectful way. In other words, if you had disagreed and then rolled back your accusations after things were clarified to you, you would not have been banned. But you seem to think you know how things are run and we are lying to you. This is bullshit Qanon behavior and can go f**k itself. You were banned for not listening or even trying to understand two staff members clarifying that your complaint was moot over and over and over again. And you still refuse to listen to this clarification and are just bitching about literally nothing that exists, so I am banning you for another week. You are being banned for digging into a misinterpreted reading of a post and refusing to listen to or be corrected by staff about the truth, and repeating this misinterpretation over and over again. And for general stupidity and rudeness and for f'ing with the peace of SBAF for no reason.
    • The idea that I would not allow negative reviews on SBAF is cluelessly ignorant to both the history of SBAF and my personal history in this hobby. I was a founding member of Changstar to which you refer, one of 4 founding members. Changstar started as the 4 of us on an email chain and then Marv created Changstar to make it easier for us to communicate, and at first Changstar was just the 4 of us. We shit on gear all the time, probably to the forum's detriment. I made "ad-buster" images as jokes visually depicting why gear was crap. Like this image here of the DT-1350's unit to unit variation. Or this image making fun of the Beyer T1 for it's advertising and crazy uneven FR, Or this image depicting the FR of the HD700. Or this image of an elephant shitting on a pair of AKG K550's. I made all these images for fun on photoshop. And this last image got me banned from head-fi for posting too many negative reviews of headphones. You can refer to my review of the BHA-1 amp if you want to see a non-first-post negative review written by me here on SBAF. This was not a vendor loaner but a personal loaner so the first post thing doesn't apply, but it is still a tiny bit of information for you to hopefully absorb about me. I am quite happy writing negative reviews. However, I am now an MOT and cannot do this sort of thing any longer for obvious reasons. But my point is that your assertions about me, this site, and Changstar are quite ignorant. 2 of the original 4 founding members of Changstar are no longer posting or present here on SBAF. The 2 original founding members of Changstar that are still here on SBAF are me and Marv. So talking about me betraying the core principles that Changstar was founded on is, well, idiotic to be quite frank.
    ps. thank you for exhausting me yet again with this bullshit. Much appreciated. You realize that instead of writing this and having to be painstakingly clear about every word to avoid further confusion, I could have written a review of the CFA Supermoon, and started the loaner tour for that which would have benefitted everyone here. Or I could have done something else in my life that would have really benefitted a lot more people.

    if anyone has legitimate concerns, worries or questions about this and isn’t just spreading misinformation like above please feel free to send a pm addressed to both me and Dan and we’ll be happy to clarify or consider anything. I will make it easy for you. Just copy paste this into the “to” field. No one will be banned for any pm sent to us. Well maybe if you tell us to f**k off. DO NOT BITCH TO MARV ABOUT THIS OR YOU WILL GET BANNED.

    @rhythmdevils, @ChaChaRealSmooth
     
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    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
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