The Two Channel Advice Thread

Oh, I had forgotten about them. Was lusting after them some years ago....

 

I had some emails go back and forth with the owner. He actually made me an interesting offer to be a guinea pig on a new development of the FSX that I was super intrigued by... but sadly with the poor CAD exchange rate right now and complications to get across the border, it just wasn't in the cards.

 

Now I'm thinking something is holding my Phils back as they don't seem as dynamic as some of the things I heard at CAPFest.

How would one go about isolating that lack of dynamism? Like, do I need more power to the system (i.e. dedicated power line) or do I need more amp or maybe something else?

(They're still bigger than I'm comfortable with. Until I find something "better+smaller" I want them to sound their best).

 

I'd rate dynamics as the most important trait for me in a system, so here's some ideas based on my experience - which, is quite limited, so take it with a grain of salt.

I haven't heard the Philharmonic speakers, but they appear to be in the direction of the "quintessential" audiophile speaker, with a focus on an even soundstage, accurate timbre and detail, but not making dynamics a high priority. If you wanted to try a different speaker, I've had good luck with my pair Klipsch RP-160m, which are the model right before the RP-600, which has gotten some rave reviews in the online review spaces. They have satisfying dynamics for me as a bookshelf speaker, they should be smaller than the Phils, and they can be found for a few hundred bucks, so not a huge spend to just try them out. I've read (but not heard personally) that the RP-600m MkII is more laid back, so I'd stick with one of the other two models personally.

Depending on budget, taste and willingness, you could seek out other speakers that are renowned for their dynamics and give 'em a try, but that route might be enough to give you a taste of whether the speakers are the issue, or something else in your chain. I also like my Zu DW, but those are more expensive, and bigger, so might not be a good fit for what you're trying to achieve. It seems that higher efficiency speakers usually have more emphasis on dynamics, but higher efficiency speakers are usually going to cost more and be large. Might be a challenge to find smaller ones with enough dynamic "oomph" for you. I've also heard good things about (but not personally heard) Monitor Audio Silver series and on up, as far as dynamics.

At the other end of the chain, I'd also consider your sources. I pretty much only listen to digital sources, but I've experienced laid-back DACs making me feel like my system isn't dynamic enough, and switching to another, more lively DAC, helped fill in some of that missing dynamics. I'd vote that the OG Bifrost 2 did that for me, and can be found for $500-600 or so used, and might be a good way to compare your current sources and see if they might be the problem.

As far as amps, I've never had anything over 70 watts, and have had lively dynamics in my system with as little as 2 watts. While some people have good luck with dynamics and higher wattage amps, my belief is that simpler circuits tend to get out of their own way and have a better shot of sounding dynamic, so long as they pair well with the speakers.

I'm also a believer that low or no overall negative feedback tends to have livelier dynamics. If I remember right, you're rocking an Ayre amp? The Ax-7e? If so, you've got that on lockdown. I haven't the amp myself, so maybe it's not a good fit with the Phils, but it's possible it could just be a more laidback amp, and another amp altogether might give you more dynamics. Trying a second pair of speakers might help you triangulate the amp's demeanor, too.

Maybe the new Schiit Wotan can kill two birds (big on watts, no negative feedback.) with one stone for you?

I've also been reading a lot of reviews on the Musical Fidelity A1, and a consistent theme is the liveliness of the presentation of the amp. Could be worth a look.

Adding a subwoofer, if you don't have one already, can also help with perceived dynamics in my experience, as well. Even if you don't do the thing where you send a signal to it first, and send a high-pass signal to your amp, and a low-pass signal to the sub (which can make your amp not work as hard and end up sounding better) - just more heft in the low end can make things sound bigger and more bombastic.

That'd be how I'd approach it. Probably source first (find something lively and energetic), speakers second (try something different and see if the problem persists), add a subwoofer, then think about a different amp. As far as different amps - the buzzword (or "buzzphrase", I suppose) I look for in reviews is "It sounds better the more you turn it up" - that tells me whatever is being reviewed will probably sound flat and lifeless at low to moderate volumes. Conversely, if reviewers say something sounds dynamic at low volumes, it's probably a good contender.

One last parting thought - separates might also get you where you want to go. In particular, I'm thinking about preamps, and that I really like my Freya + and Slagleformer AVC and how they present dynamics, but that other preamps I've tried have have sounded cloudier and less lively. More opportunity to dial in your sound with separates, but, also more variables. If you like Ayre, the K-5xeMP seems well received and can be found used around $2000 or so. (again, haven't heard it, but it's penciled in as the next preamp I want to try in my setup).

$0.02 - hope that helps a little!

 

Which “Phil’s” you are referring to? I am currently owning BMR tower and latest version of AAM, and used to own the monitor. Feeling that they definitely love current and descent power (not necessarily brute force level)- even though the impedance curve is benign, but Dennis’ crossover design is pretty complex to achieve his dispersion magic.
Thought for demo they used van alstine’s integrate and Hypex (or Purifi) amp with Topping D90, hand-made wires and cables, nothing fansy.

 

Are you able to get your hands on some other amps? Even if they're cheapo receivers or pro audio amp, at this point in time you're just looking to see if brute force will give you the dynamic range that you want. Grab something cheap-ish off craiglist to test the hypothesis, then sell if off either way and you'll know whether to chase amp power or something else.

 

Me, too. That system has an older Klimax DS/1 that I love the sound of.
I'm pretty sure it's not the weakest link. For confirmation, I will compare the dynamics of the Akurate I have on headphones -- that easily matched an OG Gungnir on tonality and bested it on other qualities. Assuming Linns have a logical progress here the Klimax DS/1 is supposed to still be better than the Akurate DS/3 (really makes me drool when thinking of what a Klimax DS/3 must sound like).

Makes sense (see below).

I'm very tempted given Tyr's rep and the 15 day trial.

In the past, I've found that helps with "clarity." Maybe I was wrong and it was really dynamics that was being improved?

Very helpful, thanks! I already own a K-5xe so ...

Yeah, the Topping they use is very cute. Not a fan of the sterility of Class D amps -- I like the no-global-negative-feedback sound and Class D is like as opposite to that as is possible

I have several other amps to try. Not thinking any of them are so much beefier than my Ayre that they'd show an improvement?

Vidar OG is probably the best of them. I suppose trying a mono setup with the Vidar bridged?

 

Thank you all!

I had some time to swap out my Ayre AX7e (I think) integrated for my K5Xe (I think) and a Vidar in mono mode for only one channel. Only just enough for this test to avoid back problems

Impressions are that the K5/Vidar was a little less "sh-sh-sh"-y and the pluck of strings noticeably better. The "sh-sh-ing" was a bit of a surprise because the Ayres are just so silent. (it's probably from the Benchmark but hearing it was something.)

Scientific info: chain is HP mini-desktop -> roon -> USB -> Schiit Eitr -> coax -> Benchmark DAC1. Level matched via iPhone DecibelX to 1dB.

Ayre's are inherently balanced topology so XLR from the DAC to each, right channel only.

Now, is the improvement worth a Wotan to me?

 

Don't be silly... the improvement is worth a Gigastack!

 

Alas all I have room+wallet for is a TwiggyStack(tm). (AnorexicStack?)

 

Have landed in an interesting situation. Ordered a pair of Fyne Vintage Classic VIII off a larger box-mover retailer. They were 50% off, and I've been interested in the Tannoy sound since hearing a great pair of Ardens a couple years ago. I managed to audition the Fyne VIII's elsewhere--I compensated that dealer by buying a bunch of tubes--and was really impressed. My only complaint was a slightly sharp top-end on some recordings at high volume. Otherwise, I was smitten. These are the model with the 8" drivers, maybe a bit bigger than the Tannoy Eatons, three-quarters the size of the Klipsch Forte. To my ears, they do the great Tannoy thing--great coherence and timing--with better, more modern resolution and balance. Which make sense as Fyne is basically modernized Tannoy designs.

I had to have the Fynes delivered to my aunt's house, as I'm between flats and, unfortunately, still waiting to move into one I've been trying to buy. (It might fall through, b/c of legal reasons. It's a crappy system here in the UK, with lots of murky stuff lawyers have to look out for, and I'm currently hung up on that.) Anyway, my aunt took delivery of the speakers back in late August and said only, They were big. We had to have the neighbors help us bring them in.

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, and I get an email from the retailer saying, Urgent, Mis-Delivered Speakers. Turns out they sent me the model two rungs up the line, the Vintage Classic XII. 12" drivers, nearly Cornwall-sized cabinets, and an upgraded tweeter. The retailer suggested either replacing them with the VIII or me paying the difference. It's a pretty substantial price difference, actually, but I managed to talk them down to basically 55% off retail. I'm guessing that's reasonably close to their cost.

I'm not sure which way I'll go, exchange for the VIII or pay the difference for the XII. It's true that I like big speakers with big woofers, and the XII are pretty close to the Ardens I originally fell for. On the other hand, the XII are big boxes, possibly too big for many if not most London flats. They'll probably just about work for the one I've been trying to buy, but if that falls through, who knows what I'll land on? Possibly, I just look for another flat that can accommodate them.... The nice thing about the Tannoy/Fyne design is that they're meant to work close to a wall, so they might not be as impossible to place as I fear. And a big driver, perhaps, performs better at lower volumes??? Plus, the XII are more efficient, so they'll play nicer with my Enleum Amp-23R (which I'll start out with, and maybe AB with some Luxman solid-state and tube options).

Or maybe I try to get the retailer to let me have a pair of the VC X for a similar deal? That's a 10" driver, so a slightly smaller box, and it also has the upgraded tweeter. On the other hand, is it really worth the trouble of doing the return for a slightly smaller box?

Living room of the flat I'm hoping to finalize is 15'x14' by the way. If it falls through, I'll look for something of equal size, which can be tricky but isn't impossible.

Anyway, kind of a fun dilemma to have. A great pair of speakers for nearly half off retail. On the other hand, these are a beast to move around, and might be too big for whatever living situation I'll land in. I should add that it typically takes at least 3 months to finalize a property purchase here, so it's not like I can exactly answer the sq footage question on short notice.

Opinions and feedback sought!



(What's maybe not so useful is "Tannoy/Fyne suck, get XY or Z," etc. I know what I like, I auditioned a bunch of speakers of various designs, and I landed on a good option in the VIII. The question now is whether I go back to those or take this unusual opportunity to get the upgrade at more or less an equally good deal. I'm aware that speakers don't always work well in apartments, but I've been looking out for places that don't have shared walls: corner units, duplexes, concrete floors and walls, etc. I like headphones, but I like speakers more, and I'm trying for places where I can enjoy them, at reasonable volumes.)

 

Normally I say the bigger the better, though I have no experience with Fyne or Tannoy. Usually going bigger is only a problem when you wind up sitting too close, but you no worries about driver coherence as these are all concentric. The XII also has a significantly higher sensitivity at 96 dB vs the 91 of the VIII which is also quite good, but the XII would definitely let you get away with a lower power tube amp if that's what you want to play with at some point in the future.


Do you think you'll rotate into other gear in a few years? The resale value might be another factor to consider.

 

That's a good point about driver coherence and sitting close being less an issue. Big Tannoys seem to find their way into small Japanese listening rooms regularly, and perhaps that's partly why.

Harder to say what I'll do in the future. B/c British living spaces tend to be smaller on the whole, I'm likely to stay with speakers that work well close to walls, and these are among the best (?) options for that, so there's an argument for going for the best model in the line I can, so I'm less tempted to upgrade later on.

The other speakers I've enjoyed in my various auditions: KEF Reference One Meta, Harbeth SLH5+, and Blade 2 Meta. I'm not likely to have a room or the funds for the Blades any time soon. I like the Ref One considerably, but I'm guessing it'll prefer being out in the room. Perhaps true of the Harbeth also.

I might, some time in the future, look into a large, front-ported monitor like ATC or Graham. AudioNote come up for placement reasons a lot, but I've just not clicked with them in demos. I also quite dislike their opaque sales model, in which there are countless difficult to distinguish models and no price lists extant.

As for resale on the Fyne, hard to say. I'm guessing some or many would have issues with the size, but you do see large Tannoy for sale pretty regularly. They're regularly stocked by a secondhand hifi dealer in the city, so presumably there's a decent trade in them. Then again, on the UK hifi sites, speakers of all kinds just don't seem to be selling at the moment.

 

For something different, have you ever considered cardioid speakers to kinda take the room out of the equation? You've got a few options over there in the EU on the pro audio side with Geithain, Dutch + Dutch, or the hifi side with Kii3, Buchardt A700...

 

Thanks for the recs. I'll keep an open mind, but pro audio or active monitors haven't really taken my interest. In part b/c I like the jump factor of a big, sensitive speaker considerably. I'm also not a big fan of DSP in speakers. Somehow or another they set off my digitis. (I recognize that not all of the brands you mentioned are fully active/DSPed, but it seems to be a commonality between them.) Finally, I have a fair amount invested in an analog frontend, so running it all into the A/D converters on some of these actives seems kinda self-defeating.

I think you can see what led me to Tannoy/Fyne. Big Klipsch Heritage fan, too. No replacement for displacement, etc. I think at some point it'd be interesting to own both one of these vintage designs and a more neutral medium-size monitor. Hence my interest in the KEF Ref One. But I have to say that, on the whole, I'm more interested in engagement than neutrality, and Klipsch and Tannoy seem to bring me that. I'm sure they're colored, but it doesn't bother me.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

 

How are Omega speakers now adays? I've got a free wall in my living room now and just think floorstanders are so ugly. Omega has had my attention for awhile as it would be a fairly easy setup with a simple SET amp and my CD player..

 

A few years ago, I had a week-long home audition of the Trenner & Friedl Sun. I was looking for speakers for nearfield at my workstation, and for occasionally playing into the room with the volume turned up. I also wanted them to be visually discreet and as compact as possible. I had high hopes for the Sun because it is tiny (8¼" x 6½" x 5½"), yet it received a rave review from Stereophile where the writer declared, "The Sun is the finest stand-mounted speaker I've heard".

I enjoyed the Sun and they sound amazing for their size, but they need the volume turned up a fair amount before they come alive. At lower volume, the bass dies off and the sound becomes thin. With the volume turned up for sound quality, they would be a bit too loud for me to use for everyday nearfield listening. I need something that sounds good at low volume. BTW, it isn't surprising that I haven't seen anybody else call the Sun the best standmount they've heard. Small size has limitations that can't be overcome.

I ended up with the Harbeth P3ESR XD. My listening is mostly classical music and I was drawn to its realistic reproduction of unamplified acoustic instruments and voice. Harbeth's reputation for its midrange is well deserved. It sounds great at low volume and nearfield. At 12" height, its size was at the upper limit of what I wanted to consider.

Another small speaker to consider is the Audience ClairAudient 1+1 (8"H x 6"W x 10"D). It has an unconventional design with small full range drivers in bipolar configuration. I actually liked it more than the Sun, having a richer and more dynamic sound. It is offered with a 30 day trial period.

 

Low level listening is critical. When I go "loud" it's only maybe 75dB.

My listening room is quiet so I can listen (non-critically) at something probably like 45-60dB.

I do shy away from British brands as the British sound was not to my taste years ago. Is "British sound" still a thing?

 

How do the Harbeths mentioned above compared to the smaller ATC sealed monitors, like the SCM11 or SCM19 (whichever is closest to the Harbeth’s size)? Both seem to be two-way sealed designs.