Two mod jobs: HE560 and JAR600

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Marvey, Jul 28, 2021.

  1. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils Best SBAF member of all time

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    I’ve been thinking about this and I think these sustained up and down valleys are cup resonance. I don’t think they are the result of an undamped driver. The HE560v4 and HE6se both have drivers that are moving fast enough and depending on the pads, don’t require driver damping. My mod mostly removes cup resonance though it does damp the driver a bit as well.

    I believe an underdamped driver would be very hard to see in CSD’s because it’s not sustained. It’s literally the driver just not moving fast and flopping back and forth instead of vibrating quickly. I imagine the burst decays would be a better way to see it. Or one of your overhead views of the CSD’s where we can more easily see decay right after the original note.

    I’m going to send you a stock LCD-2 Classic and a modded LCD-2 Classic with driver damping. Hopefully we can see the difference in the measurements because the stock LCD-2 Classic is way underdamped.

    I’m guessing we might see some up and downs in the burst decay of the stock pair as the driver can’t move fast enough but I don’t know for sure.
     
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  2. Marvey

    Marvey Super Friend

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    Up and down valleys are probably cup resonance - as we see this with almost every HFM design!

    I don't think we even need the overheads with respect to LCD2C underdamping:
    LCD2C L #2.jpg
     
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  3. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils Best SBAF member of all time

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    Yeah that jagged slow but not extended ringing sort of decay across the spectrum definitely looks like an underdamped driver. Let’s see if my damped pair decays quick and clean.
     
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  4. Marvey

    Marvey Super Friend

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    Next up, the JAR600. The JAR600 is mod of the Sennheiser HD600. Some discussion of the JAR stuff is here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...-impressions-measurements-finalized-mod.6968/

    I while back, I received a few prototypes which @ext1 and @Hands were working on. Maybe it was bad synergy with gear, or bad atmospheric conditions, I didn't think they were quite ready. I still preferred my HD650KISS mod and the JAR600 seemed awfully bright.

    Fast forward a few months, @ChaChaRealSmooth brought over a JAR600 which sounded fantastic with a Eddie Current one off ultralinear amp. The Ultralinear is a different sound from the SET. Not as nuanced, simplified, but blacker, zippier, and meaner. Anything bright (HD800) with the EC Ultralinear custom would have been a torture device. However, with the JAR600 not so. Also, the JAR600 seemed to work with almost any amp I threw at it. It's since supplanted my HD650KISS mod as my go to headphone.

    Subjectively, the JAR600 maintains the highs of the HD600, but extends the bass as low as the HD650, without the HD650 veil. There's still a bit of that Sennheiser veil, but it's not anywhere near the extent of the HD650 veil.

    Here is a photo of the JAR mod. It consists of a heavy inlay into the outside of the headhone cip for mass loading and a custom damping scheme.
    DSC00001(6) (Large).JPG
     
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  5. Marvey

    Marvey Super Friend

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    JAR600
    Frequency Response
    FPC Coupler Compensated
    upload_2021-8-2_15-39-42.png

    JAR600 (BLU/RED) vs HD600 circa 2019 (WHT)
    Frequency Response
    FPC Coupler Compensated
    upload_2021-8-2_15-44-57.png
    Stock HD600 is marginally smoother in the upper mids with a peak shifted 3kHz to 5kHz. However bass of HD600 does not have that slight midbass (90Hz emphasis) and does not extend as deep.


    JAR600 (BLU/RED) vs HD6XX circa 2017 (WHT)
    Frequency Response
    FPC Coupler Compensated
    upload_2021-8-2_15-49-51.png
    Almost the same in the bass as the HD6XX, but a bit more in the lower treble. Not as sedate as the HD6XX in lower treble.
     
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  6. Marvey

    Marvey Super Friend

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    CSDs
    FPC JAR650 L.jpg
    FPC JAR650 R.jpg

    There's that bump at 4kHz. With respect to the FR, what I did not mention is that I felt that the 4kHz peak in the FR didn't seem to be as bad as indicated. I do wonder if this is because there isn't a defined triangular ridge in the decay - that the decay sorts of spread out rather than center in on a particular frequency and keep going.
     
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  7. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    It will forever remain a mystery what happened with that first JAR600 you heard, because I tested it along with a second pair that I ended up keeping.

    If anyone remembers my distaste for the HD600, I will echo what @Marvey said, and reiterate what I've said before, that the JAR600 replaced any form of modded HD650s as my go-to headphone.

    It has the sense of incisiveness and immediacy the HD650 can lack at times. Bass closer to the HD650's level, but tighter and faster, and upper-mids and treble less hot than stock. It stops just short of being slightly too hot or bright, but may still not be best for the most treble-sensitive folks.

    It's a little off putting at first coming from the HD650, but the lack of veil is hard to let go!

    My assumption is that something like that 4KHz bump will be fairly dependent on the head and ears, whether a measurement rig or a listener. I hear the JAR600 as marginally hotter and brighter than a modded HD650, but less so than the Focal Clear or Utopia.

    Slightly worn pads and adjusting the clamp to be tight, but comfortable for long listening sessions, helps the JAR600, I think.
     
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  8. Marvey

    Marvey Super Friend

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    And now we have some evidence regarding the lack of veil:

    JAR600
    Distortion Levels (H2, H3, H4) vs Frequency at various SPL
    upload_2021-8-2_22-2-54.png

    When we compare to the HD650 (below), note how the JAR600 is better in the following ways:
    1. Lower third harmonic, especially from 200Hz and below. The third harmonic will appear as an extraneous signal x3 the fundamental. This means 60Hz to 600Hz will be the area affected with stuff that shouldn't be there.
    2. Marginally lower second harmonic in the bass, about 5db less. And lot less second harmonic where that bump is just past 200Hz.
    3. Fourth harmonic stays in the lows doesn't rise as much with increasing volume.
    4. Marginally lower second order in the upper mids where the HD650's bumps at 3.5kHz and 5.5kHz are abit higher.
    The JAR600 doesn't beat the HE560v4 mod distortion in the lows. Planars still rule here.

    Sennheiser HD650 (stock)
    Distortion Levels (H2, H3, H4) vs Frequency at various SPL
    upload_2021-8-2_22-4-43.png
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2021
  9. dllmsch

    dllmsch Friend

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    My HE560 V4 has polarity flipped and I find that flipping it back helps with the weird imaging a lot subjectively. Same with Atticus. Definitely worth a try.
     
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  10. ext1

    ext1 MOT: JAR650

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    Wow- thank you so much @Marvey for measuring me and @Hands ’s humble experiments! It helps me so much to view these in a different angle rather than just subjective hearing.

    With the first pair you heard, honestly it’s really a mystery to me too but I can only think of that as probably a slightly inconsistency I had with my build. I have since honed my skills better since then but always room for improvement!
     
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  11. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    FWIW: W/o going into any real nuanced notes or whatever else, I have heard the JAR HD580, 600, and 650 from a few different amps and setups. The JAR HD600 was by far my favorite every time.

    I prefer the 580 stock. The JAR650 vs the stock 650 are different, but I wouldn't say is clearly better or worse. The JAR 600 was easily the winner for me.

    Maybe I shouldn't post this until after buying a JAR HD600... but sharing is caring too.
     
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  12. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    It is odd...the JAR600 for me is like an improvement on everything about the 600. Better focus and clarity, more definition in the low end...

    The material really puts a stop to any and all resonances as much as possible. It really does add some mass.

    The drawback is that your bad recordings will sound worse. I still grab my 650's when I want to zone out and chill. And I grab my JAR600's when you want to get more immersive and hear every detail. And now my HD600's are really a go between those two extremes. One can't have too many headphones, right?
     
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  13. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Why does JAR600 not need an elite amp but stock Senn does or is that just 650? What’s the difference between JAR600 vs KISS mod with extra++ dynamat?

    edit:
    650 KISS measurements
    600 stock measurements
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  14. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    First off, it is not just extra Dynamat. The material is WAY more dense than Dynamat and there is more of it. I have a Dynamat modded 600 and I will weigh both - but the JAR certainly weighs more.

    The other is the center foam. Sennheiser has this cheap foam disc. The JAR seems to be thicker and more complex. It seems it is adding more damping since the driver is not as held back by baffle vibrations. You realize, it is screwed in and pushing the diver in place. Same as with speaker designs with rear magnet bracing.

    As far as amp, it seems it can just resolve a little bit more. Not as veiled. So essentially you will get more out of a better amp. They may not shine or contrast in comparison side by side with a stock 600 with a not not so stellar chain.
     
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  15. ext1

    ext1 MOT: JAR650

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    Yep this was @Hands ’s brilliant idea- we all have him to thank for!

    So actually for maximum maximum damping pressure I clamp these for months and months (usually 3-4) and then apply the screws as tightly as possible at the end. That’s how it stays so tightly damped (and also why I’m taking billions of years to make one…)
     
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  16. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I would love to see THD side by side with stock 600 vs. JAR600. I have a fresh stock pair if you need @purr1n that I would not mind loaning out. I have an EARS rig, but don't know how to measure THD or those waterfall plots.
     
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  17. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils Best SBAF member of all time

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    I missed this, but thank you @E_Schaaf ! I don't understand the treble peak. I've got a great treble test track with tons of cymbal work that covers the whole treble range and even using iems with the Loki I can hear the tone go off as I turn the treble knob too far up or down. These modded HE560's matched the tone of my Mackies in the treble and never hurt my ears. First time I've thought something sounded flat and Marv had to EQ it down! Maybe my ears have gone bad.

    Regardless, there wouldn't be much to do about a treble peak like that except change pads and these pads work the best for the mod in every other way. I refuse t put stuff in front of the driver... I'd rather throw the headphones away.
     
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  18. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    Here is the only way I've heard the SR1A, I'm sure it was probably being held back by the cables. ;)

    IMG_0189.jpg
     
  19. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    So, I have these HE560's in hand. I don't really have much to say just yet, and I don't have a backlog of experiences with planars to really corroborate. Just some comments. Truth be told, I don't fully feel as though I have 'learned' planar sounds just yet.

    I hear that plasticky quality. It's not overbearing but it is definitely there. It has this weird impermanence. It's not always there. I probably wouldn't have noticed if it was pointed out. As far as treble goes, I don't really hear peakiness. I hear the low points. The treble sounds a little sucked out and certain sounds throw me off. It's verrry situational. Though in all fairness, literally every planar I have ever put on my head has thrown me off on tone. Gets me every time. In this case, it's not disagreeable. But it's definitely different. The mids are actually great on these, though. I will say, that goes a long, long way. Quite a lot of detail and coherence there. It's the treble that's not quite natural to me. Quips.

    It does have some nice openness to it. Some nice forward-back dimensional qualities. Don't get me wrong, these are some nice-sounding headphones. I would say they're slightly laid-back overall, and maybe not cool, but definitely a little bit of a treble emphasis. It's not like they're lacking in bass, either. I'm used to my HD6xx's these days. I'm not used to that tight, clean bass.

    They are very well damped. It's a world apart from what I'm used to with planars. The only way I can think to describe it is as being very dynamically clean. The transient behavior on these just sounds very controlled to me. I get the sense that this adds to that laid-back vibe in some cases, but it also gives you this clarity and emergence that still cuts through. It's smooth, but never fuzzy. When the music is faster, with more aggressive transients, everything fits in there snug and these headphones have no problem getting it all through with a strong, big, impactful sound.

    But they're also pretty granular, with textural information popping out everywhere, creeping back into the stage. They can be quite delicate. It's a nice balance. Even in the energetic passages, I hear deeply into a guitar's distorted tones and I swear I can start to pick out individual harmonics. But I'm not consumed by it. I still have that greater awareness up on the macro level. These headphones don't really let you lose that. A tight tom hit has gravity to it, and yet on top are crisp, fine layers breaking off. Music with lots of breathing room is layered and expansive. That's when you really start to hear the emergence that I assume comes from the damping measures.

    Thanks to @rhythmdevils for giving me the opportunity to try them. It's been... educational. There's a definite mojo to these HE560's. The more I use them, the more I like them.
     
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  20. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils Best SBAF member of all time

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    Thank you @robot zombie for the impressions. I think you do a good job describing both the sound of the mods I’ve done and the sound of the drivers which I cannot change and which bothers me too. I’m not happy with this modded ortho. But I shared it because the improvements over stock are pretty great and for the price it’s a good deal. With the cost of mods though, my modded LCD-2 Classic is worth saving up for instead.

    But I still feel this is a pretty “un-fucked” plastic-y Hifiman ortho and likely beats their more expensive models from what I heard out of the Edition XX
     
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