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Vinyl vs Digital (bits this, SNR that)

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by Chris F, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Hey rb2016 if you want to hear a current near SOTA vinyl front end and you happen to ever be local to me (Ottawa, Canada) you're welcome to pop in for a listen. Might change your opinion about vinyl vs digital and "noise floor" etc....

    Also, since you brought up the measurements please let me know when digital acheives the equivalent of infinite sample rate and and effectively infinite bit depth. I hear these things may affect the quality and believability of sound reproduction! ;) :p
     
    Chris F, Sep 19, 2016
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  2. Azteca

    Azteca Friend

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    nah.
     
    Azteca, Sep 19, 2016
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  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Vinyl is awesome, because the industry made it so. The best releases are sometimes available in this format.

    But infinite sample rate (infinite BW) and infinite bit depth (infinite SNR), vinyl does not provide. Not even close.

    Vinyl IMO is a difficult format where investing money in a fairly decent turntable will pay off. Perhaps more than with an all digital rig. It does not make it a superior format though.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 19, 2016
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  4. cizx

    cizx Friend

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    @Rb2016 the only credentials you need here are a thick skin and level head. Or so I hear.

    Your CV came off as pretentious and self aggrandizing. Tone it down, and maybe you'll be okay. Alternately, stay away from these f'ing assholes, and keep your head buried in Judy's ass. It's all the same.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2016
    cizx, Sep 19, 2016
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  5. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Yes you are totally right.

    I should have been more specific and said "infinite sample rate" meaning there is no sampling and you get a continuous waveform within the frequency response range and "infinite bit depth" meaning there is an infinite amount of granularity in these non existent "samples". ;)
     
    Chris F, Sep 19, 2016
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  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    One can derive the effective bitrate and depth of analog. One can derive it's precision. Vinyl is not superior to a well made (overkill) digital rig in these regards.

    However, vinyl is not always the bottleneck. It's the content.

    That's why you get the best you can to play the best release you can find.

    I mentioned this to @Serious in a few recent PM combos. @LFF used to be able to secure some good analog and digital sources/masters, and would create some awesome-sauce digital content that in many cases would destroy many stuff available in vinyl. These were hand-crafted.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 19, 2016
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  7. Azteca

    Azteca Friend

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    Thisx1000.
     
    Azteca, Sep 19, 2016
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  8. Azteca

    Azteca Friend

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    Also this. You don't have to have a degree in engineering to acknowledge this. It is not infinite, at all.
     
    Azteca, Sep 19, 2016
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  9. cizx

    cizx Friend

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    Not infinite, but not really bits.

    A digital camera sensor is trying to capture infinite data by chopping it into pixels. A film camera doesn't do it that way. It's kind of the same with audio, isn't it? Sample depth and rate instead of pixels. I don't know enough about analog audio.

    I always assumed that with vinyl, the sample rate was essentially the speed of the player (33rpm?) and the depth was as small as the bumps in the grooves could be. I recognize that this is just academic.
     
    cizx, Sep 19, 2016
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  10. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Yes agree again and this is the primary reason I own a turntable. For much of the music I listen to vinyl has the best sounding master or is the ONLY release available in the case of many small bands from back in the day.

    I'm curious how you determine the effective sample rate and bit depth of an analog signal though. For bit depth I am thinking in terms of 16 bits = 65535 steps (granularity) not in terms of min/max dB where digital is vastly superior. A bit apples and oranges.
     
    Chris F, Sep 19, 2016
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  11. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    Wow. f**k, for all we bitch, technology rocks.
     
    GoodEnoughGear, Sep 19, 2016
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  12. cizx

    cizx Friend

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    Almost word for word what Oppenheimer said...
     
    cizx, Sep 19, 2016
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  13. ultrabike

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    The sample rate is limited by the bandwidth (BW) and SNR of the full system. In some cases BW is larger than Nyquist. In some others, not so much.

    Bit rate is strongly related to SNR and bandwidth. Basically the formula is B*log2(1 + SNR), where B is the bandwidth and SNR is the signal to noise ratio of the system. A good record might have a BW as high as 45 kHz, where as the average one may only go to 15 kHz.

    Here is a convenient list of SNR numbers for different turntables:

    https://www.iamthejeff.com/post/13/turntable-comparison-chart

    Putting things together, you can get about 85 kbps (assuming 50 dB SNR and 15 kHz BW) to 285 kbps (assuming 80 dB SNR and 45 kHz BW) (check my math).

    Now, IMO all of the above are optimistic, because we are not necessarily using the "bits" efficiently throughout the whole BW. Nor is the SNR necessarily flat. BW best case might be restricted to 20 kHz (or less depending on how high in frequency one can hear). In which case one can do about 127 kbps on a good day on an awesome-sauce TT... or in my case about 95 kbps (best case scenario of 80 dB SNR and 15 kHz BW) or so since I can't hear well past 15 kHz (assuming the SNR numbers there apply well through out such bandwidth).

    Again, check my math. I'm not perfect and have been known to f**k things up.

    And again, if you have shit loads of channel capacity it does not mean that the content is awesome. In most digital releases it's shit. In many vinyl releases it's shit. It seems one has to go OCD to find the best unfortunately.

    I would get the best possible vinyl rig for my $ not because I think vinyl kicks ass. But because I feel a great TT can make a difference, and because one sometimes can only get the best content in the vinyl format.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2016
    ultrabike, Sep 19, 2016
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  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    If we are going to talk about bit-rate/depth and how infinite it is in analog, unfortunately this is not so. We should not think that dB this and dB that are not related to bits this and bits that. And we should not think that these are crazy theoretical ideas that have never seen the light of application. These things are AFAIK very real and tested. They are not new either.

    That said, I wouldn't worry about the bit-rate/depth math. The proof is in the pudding. I know first hand that good quality vinyl rigs work really well and the material available through them is awesome. If such is the case, then bit-rate/depth math and stuff is somewhat academic, because it would seem to me that such things are not necessarily holding back performance.

    I would keep an open mind either way. If one restricts one's mind to only vinyl is awesome, or the other way around, one may miss good stuff.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 19, 2016
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  15. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    We already had a similar discussion in the MQA thread. If we look close enough, everything is quantised.

    On the other hand, go do some googling and find AD/DA looped files. You will find files made with some of the best ADCs and DACs.

    EDIT: Meant to link page 3 and not a specific post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2016
    Serious, Sep 19, 2016
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  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL! not only quantization noise is bad. Any type of noise is bad. One will not be able to remove noise from analog or quantization noise entirely. It doesn't mater if it came out of a shit load of flies or an elephants ass.

    There are ways in which one can pop up signal through spread spectrum and shit. But SNR is SNR. Channel capacity and it's limits are what they are. It's sort of written in stone if you like.
     
    ultrabike, Sep 19, 2016
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  17. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    BTW guyses. Moved things around, to keep threads somewhat cleanish. Carry on :)
     
    ultrabike, Sep 19, 2016
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