Kr4star is a butt and PacoTaco gets discounts on review gear

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by k4rstar, Nov 13, 2017 at 6:51 PM.

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  1. Mystic

    Mystic Friend

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    Then people like @Hands and @Marvey wouldn't be able to post reviews here anymore. Manufacturers will sometimes send them shit to look at. ZMF and MrSpeakers as the latest to do so. Schiit sends members here prototype stuff to get feedback on.

    What your asking would essentially kill forums like this one.

    Actually the list is probably even bigger. Klipsch, Schiit, ZMF, MrSpeakers, Eddie Current, Massdrop everything, Campfire Audio. Along with many smaller outlets. Many of our tour units over the last couple years were provided by the manufacturer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 10:50 AM

  2. brencho

    brencho Good Friend (Moderator)

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    i think transparency with even the remotest conflict of interest would do the trick (like, if you were sent something by a mot to check out, or in more extreme cases, sent a piece of gear that you might get to keep or receive a discount on). then individuals can decide for themselves with all of the info at hand how heavily to weight that information.
     
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  3. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Friend

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    Nope, you just can't review a product you're connected to. Not by association, but by intent.

    Marv can shill or lampoon Schiit all day long. No conflict. And yes, if you were 'provided a review unit' go post the review under your own brand and link it here. I'm not talking about banning the existence of reviews or arguing their validity. But this is not a commercial platform in any way, so IMO buyers get to review here.
     
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  4. Elnrik

    Elnrik Friend

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    He did state Zach was sending them as a review, FWIW.

    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/zmf-auteur-an-open-back-zmf.5088/page-2
     
  5. k4rstar

    k4rstar Friend

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    This is exactly the type of discussion that needs to be had. I am noticing way too many wannabe reviewers/authorities getting direct loaners from manufacturers and passing them off as unbiased casual impressions. In this case, it was a literal copy-and-paste job from a Reddit review with no disclosure of the past relationship with the manufacturer that resulted in acquiring several headphones well below retail price as well as the loan of multiple thousands of dollars of source gear. There is not much room required for interpretation when I see something like this.

    Despite what some may want you to believe it was never my intention to highlight some sort of ZMF Shilluminati conspiracy theory, and as far as I'm concerned review units are very much standard practice. That does not excuse the unscrupulous "review" with zero disclosure or pre-face. And no, offhandedly mentioning that it's a manufacturer loaner in a separate post pages ago does not count. Many people will not see it.
     
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  6. Gaspasser

    Gaspasser Friend

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    Just like in academic papers and presentations.
     
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  7. Mystic

    Mystic Friend

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    Go back and re-read what I wrote. I was listing manufacturers that many members including staff here have close personal ties too. Who are given prototypes and even production models to give feedback on, review, whatever. Where do you think Hands got his Auteur from? He didn't buy it. Zach gave it to him for feedback and impressions. Same thing when he reviewed the Aeon. Are we too grab the pitchforks for him as well? (No)

    Let's not pretend that this entire thing isn't about a very, VERY select number of people who worship the altar of Psalm. They literally have their own discord where they plan this shit out and how to attack members.



     
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  8. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Meh, I'm not going to post my crap elsewhere. I'll just disclose if I provided feedback on a product in development, got a discounted or free unit, have personal ties with any individuals, etc. Anyone can always choose to not read my stuff or leave the forums if they so wish because of this (the latter if they find it too prevalent in the community as a whole, hopefully not just because of me), or the actual admins can have reviewers change course if they feel that a better options. I'm fine either way, but don't expect me to post on a blog or elsewhere and link to it, because, frankly, I'm too fucking lazy for that.

    There are times when I might review a unit and am later offered it at a discount or for free. Those times I may forget to disclose that, since it was usually at least several days after I posted anything, but it's not out of secrecy. You can always ask me if I was allowed to keep or buy something at a discount.

    And, yeah, I have some friendships with some guys making products, like Zach. They can tell you I'm not always easy on them with my feedback in private and public. Any of them will tell you that I never ask for free stuff, never ask for discounts, and set clear expectations that I have no expectations to get anything out of any of this. I don't play silly games like that and am not going to ask for free shit as if I'm some sort of privileged reviewer. Believe it or not, I genuinely just want to help people find good products for their tastes and needs, so I'm happy to aid anyone, manufacturers and the community, however best I can.

    Still, I can understand the hesitation. Very few know me on a personal level and thus can't actually trust that I try to be as honest and unbiased about my reviews as possible, no matter my level of involvement or ties. And a lot of reviewers in the industry, even smaller forum posters, have shady practices and abuse what ties they have for monetary, material, or even social status gains. So, I'm not offended if someone says I shouldn't post in these scenarios or that they can't trust I'm being totally honest. It's the freaking internet, and that's a smart way to operate. You all should be skeptical of what I have to say unless you know me really well.

    Anyway, I try to be as transparent and honest as possible in my reviews, no matter what. Simple as that. Doesn't mean you have to believe me, just like it doesn't mean you have to agree with my findings.
     
  9. Mystic

    Mystic Friend

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    @Hands

    I wasn't calling you out or anything like that. Just using as an example of a good reviewer who has ties to some of the people in the industry. I would hate to see you stop reviewing stuff here.
     
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  10. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    My results were...impressive:
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    Kunlun, the valley of death.



    Hey, let's all post a ton of shit reviews based on 5-minute audio meet impressions (without disclosing that)! Problem solved! Thanks Psal!

    But seriously, transparency is obviously the answer for anyone who isn't a turd.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 11:46 AM
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  11. Gaspasser

    Gaspasser Friend

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    Exactly, my point was not that any of the known reviewers (like Hands, Marvey, all the admins, etc.) need to disclose stuff, either you already do or you have earned the trust of the people; but people new to posting formal reviews (more than impressions, etc.) should disclose ties to MOT and any form of compensation they get before or after the review.
     
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Before reviewing equipment:
    1. Disclose how much the vendor paid the reviewer to write an article about the equipment.
    2. If the review is negative, disclose how much the vendor's competitor paid the reviewer.
    3. If no cash, check or credit card transactions occurred between the reviewer and the vendor, disclose any gift cards, free tickets, or any sexual services sponsored by the vendor on the reviewers behalf.
    4. If sexual services were provided, the reviewer is required to provide pictures, video and/or recordings on the appropriate thread.
    5. Disclose how many chickens and goats where used if such sexual services were provided.
    6. If the reviewer is "friends" with the equipment manufacturer and/or relevant employee(s), describe what "friends" means to the reviewer.
    7. If the reviewer "took it all the way to third base" with the equipment manufacturer and/or relevant employee(s), provide a complete and detailed description regarding the nature of what "third base" means to the reviewer (attach pictures, video and/or recordings in the appropriate thread).
    8. Reviewer descriptions such as reviewers color of underware (if present) and clothing details is encouraged if the reviewer is female and goes to the gym regularly. Otherwise, this is discouraged.
    9. The reviewer is required to furnish information about his/her marital status (e.g. single) and living arrangements (e.g. living with mom and/or dad in the basement).
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 1:16 PM
  13. ButtUglyJeff

    ButtUglyJeff Friend

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    I smell a form letter in the works...

    Make sure its in triplicate, and one copy sent to Psalm.
     
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  14. JK47

    JK47 Friend

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    @Kattefjaes Who are these “Toxic Crusaders” ?

    We need to know, so a vigilant watch can be established, and posts reported immediately to mods.

    Guys like @Marvey and few other’s projects and posts are the lifeblood of this site. Noise on both sides of the equation are bringing it down, and quite often people jump in and take sides without even knowing where and when the difference of opinion started.

    Respect is earned not given.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 1:24 PM
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  15. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Oh, well, I wasn't referring to you anyway, so...No worries? :) I was just generalizing based on some concerns others brought up.
     
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  16. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    Part of this community is knowing the reviewers and where the reviews are coming from. Everyone jumped all over Psalm when he came back and said Auteur was terrible because he didn't list source gear and was an unknown contributor. A similar reaction shouldn't be that surprising for a positive review either. Mr Taco was clearly very excited to try out this new can, was afforded to opportunity to try out some great gear with it, and liked what is probably a very good headphone. Follow up questions are what makes this place good, and the ability to honestly answer good or bad.

    While I think its always fair to ask questions of the reviewer, I also see a need for reasonable disclosure. Disclosing where every pc of equipment came from and how many shill bucks it costs isn't reasonable or interesting to read. Some people are pretty well known as friends of manufacturers or suppliers, and their early reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. The Denafrips dac fans from Italy truly believed their products were superior, as do Mr Speakers fans, Audeze fans etc etc. Knowing this place and knowing the reviewer is as important as the words that are written. More than a couple times here people who are extreme fans of a certain product or brand have been exposed and then their opinions are adjusted on the sliding scale of shill-ability.
     
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  17. Merrick

    Merrick Friend

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    Where is this cult of Psalm springing from? IIRC most of us here took his reviews/impressions/opinions with a huge grain of salt due to his proclivity for listening to nothing but the shriekiest of death metal.
     
  18. Skyline

    Skyline Friend

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    It's remarkable how easily saying something in a bombastic and confident manner will cause other people to accept it without question...
     
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  19. k4rstar

    k4rstar Friend

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    Yup, Psalm has completely taken control of my mind with his dreamy gaze. It's impossible that I thought this was something worth bringing up of my own volition.

    Hilarious how I would start magically 'trolling' after hundreds of posts sharing gear impressions, giving advice/help to other members and discussing subjects outside of audio casually. I guess you probably forgot the one time I gave you a pair of tubes for your Valhalla and paid shipping out of my own pocket. How about that time you needed help with power conditioning and I sent you several PMs?

    Get a grip. The circle jerking on this site makes me sick to my stomach. Psalm is banned and in case you haven't noticed, has not posted in this thread. Why use him as a bogeyman to try and invalidate everything I say?
     
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  20. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    We know about the goats, man.

    [​IMG]


    The jig is up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 1:29 PM
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