Realism, fullness, open-backs, and chasing the Orpheus.

Up until recently I’d mostly listened to the TH900, HD800, and HD650. Over the weekend I got to hear planar magnetic and electrostatic headphones, along with the Focals, for the very first time. The new Orpheus was spectacular, the Focals impressive, and the planars not what I expected. I found myself day-dreaming about my experience with the Orpheus, and trying to figure out what made it so special, and the Focals so impressive. There are a variety of reasons why of course, for one the Orpheus felt hyper-real somehow, as if you were hearing more than you would have if you were standing there, without being analytical and not due to it's bright signature. I ultimately honed in on a combination of three things:

1. Realism/solidity/thickness vs holo/thin/ethereal. Possibly referred to as corporeality as a general term. EDIT: Tactility, Tangibility.
2. Fullness/bass-weight/bass-feel EDIT: Weight, pressure
3. Open-back design

I’ve not often seen headphones talked about in the context of the first one in particular. The HD800 where it comes to the first two traits is atrocious (however much EQ or amping I throw at it), the TH900 fantastic, the HD650 okay-ish. The planars, electrostats, and Focals all had this sense of fullness to different degrees, but only the Focals and Orpheus paired it with realism, the others were more in the middle but leaning toward the HD800 ethereal nature a little. (I’ve found a higher output impedance can effect this on the HD800 but it ’s not worth the negative tradeoffs, and I haven’t tried the SBAF rug liner mod as they want $82 to ship $18 dollars worth to the UK).

I actually came back appreciating the TH900(+EQ) a great deal more, of course having rear cups the mids sound unnatural, and it lacks the air of an open-back. I’m guessing it’s the rear cup that maintains a higher sound pressure and allows the very low frequency reproduction you feel as fullness rather than hear, and the sense of realism and solidity?

Frequency response aside, I think the TH900, Elear, Utopia, and Orpheus are the most engaging/involving headphones I’ve ever heard. So I've become very curious about the following:

1. What’s your take on these qualities, and their importance?
2. Why is there such a difference between headphones in these respects?
3. Why isn’t it talked about more?
4. How the hell did they manage to achieve both of them simultaneously in open-backs with the Elear, Utopia, and Orpheus HE-1. Especially the latter two without sounding thin as with other highly resolving headphones like the HD800 and Stax (or so I've heard re. Stax)?
5. Are there other open-back headphones that possess both these qualities, perhaps the Abyss 1266?
6. Is there a way to coax more of these traits out of other headphones?

EDIT: I spent most of my listening time with Elear pads on the Utopia, Utopia pads made things sound thinner.

 

I feel that what you're describing as solidity/thickness/fullness is more an effect of FR. At least I found the HE1 to still sound more ethereal/still have some of that estat coloration versus the HD800.

I can ship you some of the SBAF mod material, but it doesn't directly address the treble peak, it mainly just elevates the upper midrange. Without other mods the treble will probably still be too hot for your tastes, even combined with the SD resonator. Since you can't get more efficiency out of nowhere you'll get less bass when boosting the upper mids, so I'm not quite sure if it's what you're looking for, either. The Utopia definitely has more midbass than my HD800, relative to the fundamentals.

 

Thanks very much for the offer, I may take you up on it.

I have to disagree on the FR side of things though, I'm not talking about bass quantity. Though I have noticed 70hz region can effect a sense of fullness a little. I've spent a great deal of time EQing and looking at FR measurements. It's absolutely not that, though it can be misleading. My HD800 will never ever sound as real or full as my TH900, even if I EQ down the bass on the TH900, however much I fiddle with my parametric EQ and over power it with my Mjolnir 2. The mojo does actually create more fullness of sound than anything else I've tried but it's still only a small improvement.

There seem to be many people who can never quite get along with the HD800, I think this stuff may at least be part of why.

EDIT: I've noticed something similar with DACs. The GO450 sounds ethereal/lacks substance, the Modi Multibit is quite the opposite. EQ has no effect on either. To a lesser degree another example is the FRM vs the TCM filter on the GO450.

 

I am inclined to believe that the characteristics you highlight here have been described as impact and realism by others. For instance, HE6 can be quite impactful to many including me. Besides of headphone design, amplifiers and upstream signal sources also matter. I suspect if you have ever listened to a Moth 2a3 amp (with RCA monoplate tubes) driving HD650 or even HD800, you will hear these qualities. The bass will slam like a lethal weapon and the physical impact seems real like a speaker may provide. The imaging and soundstage are also enhanced. From what I read about BHSE driving Stax 009, it will also make the phones more impactful.

 

Yes, indeed. Also slam. It's part of the reason I got the Mjolnir 2. It's reputation here indicates it can slam more than any amplifier at any price, and the LISST tubes improve this further. It does indeed help, but it can only help so much, and does little to nothing for realism. I wouldn't conflate realism and impact, after trying so many headphones on the same day I was perceiving them as easily distinguishable traits. For example the Focals had a bit less weight than the Hifimans but quite bit more realism. I think if something has impact it will also demonstrate fullness, but I'm not really talking about basslines, just how it effects the whole auditory picture.

EDIT: The way I tried to described things may not have been great, even a little mixed up. But engaging and involving are other ways I tend to describe something if it sounds real(er).

 

Tactility would be a good way of describing it. That's interesting, you're referring to microdynamics, right? I understand the theory but to be honest I haven't yet grasped what the term means in practice. Is there a good way to demonstrate this?

Funnily enough my research previously had lead me to the Abyss, and possibly the HEK, for these reasons. I've tried the HEK now and consider them a compromise in between the HD800 and TH900, leaning more the former in this area.

The TH900 and HD800 to me are opposites with this stuff. I've spent a long time EQing the HD800 trying to make it more like the TH900 in these respects with very limited results. If anyone has both try EQing the HD800 bass and bass-mid regions, I would often tend to over compensate with the HD800 because it lacked any weight. Or EQ them both to the harman target as measured on @Tyll Hertsens dummy head, the HD800 will still sound thin and uninvolving in comparison.

I'm really surprised that others aren't sensing the same things. It's possible I've become hyper-aware of these differences because I've been futzing with these two so much, and I had been using the TH900 for a year when I got the HD800.

EDIT: I spent most of my listening time with Elear pads on the Utopia, Utopia pads made things sound thinner.

 

Maybe your results with EQing the HD800 were so bad because you went off the FR curves? The curves you're looking at might not be accurate. That's just a thought because I don't really understand how you feel that the HEK is more impactful than the HD800. Maybe it's because you seem to be talking mainly about the bass?

I think with what you're looking for the Abyss or your TH900 will probably be your best choices. Abyss might still be too basslight for you, especially since you listened to the Utopia with Elear pads. As far as low distortion, high level bass goes, the TH900 are probably your best bet in the dynamic world.

 

Possibly. But I've experimented a ton and used hardware and software EQ. No I felt the HEK bass to be quite flat and unemphasized. Always possible I've got a screwed up pair of HD800s, but I heard the HD800S that day too and nothing seemed off. I've EQ'd the TH900 bass down and maintained the same perception. I've considered the HD800 fit poorly so I've pressed in to check. I mean it doesn't surprise me. The HD800 driver has a much much smaller surface area than the HEK, with a whole in the middle.

The Utopia pads are full of holes, and sound thinner than the Elears. For example if you were to try and EQ that difference you would technically increases bass frequencies but you wouldn't get the same weight behind it. Try inserting a gap with the pads of your headphones, or lifting them slightly. See how it changes the sound on different headphones.

 

Thanks guys, talking with you all has helped me hone in on and explain this better.

Regarding fullness. Anything that exhibits impact/slam will feature this. But I'm not referring to sounds which are mostly bass that hit hard, I'm thinking of how the lower-registers of a typical sound create the feeling of weight to them and make the whole sound feel more complete on a headphone like that, even if you EQ the bass and mid-bass down. You could call it subtle-impact or subtle-slam. EDIT: At times I felt it as a gentle swell of pressure. EDIT: Alternatively I would described this as the weight of sound.

In terms of what I was describing with realism vs ethereal sound, @Marvey's use of the word tactile was much closer to what I’m talking about. Summing it up perfectly is the word tangibiliy. Like how picking up something leather feels in contrast to something silk, or how a ghostly form may be depicted in a movie vs a live human being. Tangible vs intangible.

I’ve found open dynamics less tangible than the Fostex, the HD800 being the worst offender. One example is removing the back and front foam completely from the HD650 which improves it’s technical performance and introduces a rawness to the treble, but also makes the audio feel less tangible and less weighty. Something about the foam thickens up the sound. I had assumed planars with their large diaphragm would be the only way to have an open back while increasing the tangibility and fullness factor. My experience recently proved this to be not quite true.

I've had a few non-audiophiles, and a musician, listen to each one EQ'd. They all tend to like the Fostex and really don't like the Senn when compared. I'm positive these characteristics are why.

To me hearing these qualities together and so strongly in an open back like the Orpheus was part of what made them so special, and to a lesser degree part of what made the Focal's so impressive.

 

You're capturing an important point in this quote, I like it! I think there comes a time where some HD800 owners have done all they could and yet realises that HD800 is not for them. It's part of the great value here on SBAF - to try and dissect the options so that not everyone would have to spend those dollars in vain.

 

I get what you're saying OP. It's also something I really crave and listen for in new headphones. Some of the Fostex derivates actually do this better than the HD800. It's as if that acoustic perception has a physicality behind it, a sense of power/force and thus giving the perception of weight and mass. I don't know what's causing it. Probably a mixture of low distortion, excellent driver control and the way air is being pushed towards your ears (that's just a guess).

I want Fostex to build a new flagship, correcting the TH-900 peaks and maybe even include an ever stronger magnet.

 

Absolutely, and even if something isn't a popular viewpoint it's always worth exploring things from new angles. As far as the HD800 goes I think that it's issues are less prominent with a narrow selection of genres. For example for movies I'd say that with some EQ and a powerful amp it's the best option available, it's set of trade offs matching more closely to the priorities of movie watching.

I haven't tried it myself yet but apparently you can use TH610 pads on the TH900 and it's tonality becomes pretty close to the rest of the Foster variants: http://www.innerfidelity.com/conten...-d5000-massdrop-fostex-th#m8ihBjWbQfobkk67.97

I think the feeling of fullness/weight is about how much air pressure is created. For example if you get a very high powered subwoofer with a 6" driver it may reproduce the same frequencies as a 12" at the same volume but it's still gonna just sound like a bunch of mouse farts if the room is too big for it, or so I have read. My guess at what causes this with the HD800 is that the ring radiator driver means it has a smaller surface area compared to a typical 50mm driver, as well as that hole in the centre, and having such a large internal cup space. For example if you were to swing a frying pan with the flat of it facing the direction of the swing you're going to feel the air resistance, if you cut a big hole out of the middle it's going to move much more swiftly with greater stability, as with a fly swatter or a tennis racket.


To test the theory I just "designed" and completed a highly technical "mod", pictured below. I stuffed the internal rim with two man-sized kleenex' to reduce the internal cup volume and limit anything getting through the metal mesh. Hey presto, the sound gains a little weight, even using EQ to reduce the bass increase. (Also changes tonality, shrinks the image, and degrades resolution.)

It's actually also effecting the tangibility aspect too, possibly more so than fullness/weight. But it seems like it's due to the stage shrinking, as if the image was being stretched too thinly before...

 

Yeah those Fostex drivers have a little bit of magic or fairy dust in them. I've called it both "sweetness" and "smoothness" and maybe it is the extremely low distortion or the way it creates the low frequency vibrations with such control. My first "OMG" moment in this hobby was the first night I connected the TH-X00's to Modi Multibit and Lyr 2 and just sat and listened for a while. I think I may have shed a tear or two...

 

I just stumbled upon this thread and would like to get it going again.

This weight and dynamic nuance that has been touched upon in this thread by @BenjaminBore and @purr1n is the absolute pinnacle for what I desire from audio. If I could boil it down to just 2 aspects it would be these. As mentioned in this thread, the HD650 (modded in my case) is able to do get close to this with the right amp and source, which I believe I have because its the closest I've been able to get to that sound and why I still can't find a replacement. Understandably, the HD650 suffers in other areas.

In terms of TOTL headphones, gut instinct tells me that the LCD-4 might get closer than any other, as I'm familiar with Audeze's house sound and it should have the best technicalities of any of their others. The 007 MK2 sounds quite interesting due to having more body compared to other electrostats in addition to the things that they do so well, but I imagine they would still sound too ethereal. The ESP-950 would probably the best stat for this criteria but its bass would be a letdown.

So heading into 2019, are we any closer to reaching (in what my opinion is) the pinnacle of audio reproduction in terms of a certain weight/body/tonal richness/natural warmth combined with dynamic nuance for headphones?

 

Maybe the ZMF Verite will become a contender with the qualities mentioned in this thread. Early impressions I read here and elsewhere seem to point that way, but more impressions would be welcome.

 

personally i think there's some truth to audio designers/engineers that claim to focus on the midrange and upper midrange claiming to know what the "secret sauce" is. Of the audio junk I've heard, it's the Audio Notes and Harbeths, Spendors, and brands that try to emulate those "house sounds" that I've enjoyed most. Psalmanzar can suck a fart, with regards to the audio engineering cred of the above mentioned brands, but designed for residential playback, with some caveats. Just my opinion, so feel free to shit all over it.

 

I know it's heresy to even say it, but I don't get the love the HD800 & HD650 get, and the OP's/this thread's emphasis on "weight", "tactility", and the like is certainly among the reasons. Focal Clear's are my goto HP for now, and planars of various sorts with 'weight' have been in the past.

That said yotacowboy is certainly not alone in that mid/upper mid is THE thing for some and everything else can be almost completely overlooked...