What It Really Means To Be Real, i.e. What Gear Do We Actually Use

I think most of what this thread is missing is context. Like, what are you actually after? Susvara, Abyss , Stax, Utopia seem to me just going to eek out every single last bit of detail, which, for the 95% of the stuff l listen to would not benefit from. I get the technicalities, but I listen to mostly crap recordings, so it only makes them sound worse. Same for most speakers. This is why I have never liked B&W speakers, because their test is classical music to sound natrual, and I am listening to distorted guitars, messed up recordings (ie. Beck, etc.) and it does not translate. It actually makes stuff like Led Zeppelin sound worse? Who wants that? I mean, if you are after "most accurate" or something to handle all the intricacies of EDM without congestion, then sure.

So I think it comes down to enjoyment and you have to ask, "Is this enough more my enjoyment?" and for many, mid-fi or upper mid-fi is where they land. Or maybe Holo DAC, some top tier DNA amp some JAR650's is where you land (kind of like what Marv said about Joe the Plumber). Or maybe, like for me, is just two or three tiers below that.

So I think there is the diminishing returns idea, where you are only getting so much actual gain by spending SO much, but the gains to me are not worth it for my music choices. I have also realized I am not a Corvette person or a McIntosh person to have enjoyment either. Although if someone invited me to ride with them in their Corvette or invited me over to hear their Mc-system, I would not turn them down. So yes, some of us are not "summit-fi", but also like to live vicariously, even though it might not be a fit personally or financially.

Like I know many HT guys on the AVS site are after pure DR. Like "can your system put out full 110db or 120db?" Like they are after full range. Like, that is their goal. If your goal is every single last detail uncluttered and uncongested because I want to hear ALL OF IT, then so be it. I don't need summit-fi to things to be enjoyable.


BTW - most mixing engineers don't even have summit-fi stuff. Mastering engineers...maybe, probably most, not all.

 

Yeah, it's also about finding what best matches the intended use and/or music.

As I've said before, my most-used transducer, by far, is my old, yellowed pair of Bose SoundSport IEM. They're comfortable, they don't fall out, and they sound totally okay for podcasts and running playlists.

When I listen to 2ch, especially records, especially jazz records, I want warmth, engagement, and for the drums and horns to sound "live." I've heard some Magico and high-end Wilson's that, sure, I'd love to own. But in many ways, I prefer my much more modest Klipsch Forte.

For HP listening, I actually do seek out detail, resolution, micro-dynamics, etc. Rock and jazz are for 2ch. HPs are for getting deep into something electronic or highly and intricately produced and to appreciate all of the meticulous work someone has done layering sound upon sound and sneaking in all sorts of treats. I find, too, that more detailed HPs and amps can sometimes let me more fully appreciate how a song is meant to come together on all levels.

Good point about mixing engineers. I've seen a lot of them use NS-10s, which are detail, detail, detail--to show up bad notes and stray noises--but not meant for pleasant listening, I believe. A lot of mastering engineers have the $$$$ stuff. The (indie rock) recording studios I've been are more like music workshops. But I'll bet wherever ECM records their albums is more clinical, etc, as befits that kind of music.

EDIT: https://tapeop.com/interviews/91/jan-erik-kongshaug-bonus/

Commonly used studio for ECM recordings. B&W monitors! Makes sense.

 

Most don't mix on NS-10's anymore, except the old school guys. Yes, they suck on lows and piercing in the highs and they are not crazy detailed, but the magic is in the mids. Mixing on them really makes you appreciate the midrange and where you realize where most of the stuff is happening and you learn where to separate things. It was a "lowest common denominator" type of speaker that actually translates very well because of those rich mids.

But yea, they started chucking the NS-10's to the side sometime in the early 00's when the self powered speakers started coming out. Like I saw them all replaced by Mackie HR626's. And now they are all probably using a Genelec of some kind or Focal powered monitors. Now is more of a mix more than it ever has been. Some go for the super detailed and high priced PMC's, but there are more and more Focals I see all the time.

 

I don't do much with headphones any more. KSC-35s with a headband is my go to when I need something portable, and it's usually just plugged into a phone.

Lately I've gotten more enjoyment out of my office system which is an early 80's Yamaha receiver garage sale find on a pair of Boston Acostics speakers of similar vintage. I know it's not "high end" but it sounds good with a cheap Geshelli DAC and Roon. I've also gotten a lot of pleasure by refurbing old stuff which usually just needs the caps replaced. I'm not a tech nor do I have the money for testing equipment, but semi-vintage stuff can be had reasonably and sounds good after a recap and cleaning. I think this is the cure for nervosa. I know this gear isn't the last word in detail but I'm more likely to just enjoy the music rather than falling into "What if I ....(do some unneeded upgrade)".

My main rig gets maybe 2-4 hrs of use on the weekend. I'm starting to learn how to take off the quasi-reviewer hat and just enjoy. But honestly I wouldn't miss it that much. The office system gets more use.

 

I regularly listen to music on “lesser” gear to make me go wow when i hear the main system again. So sometimes i take a break from the speakers for something like at least a week. Long enough to make me wonder was it actually worth it then to immediately be floored. Who needs upgrades?

 

Edibles are a good alternative for this as well.

 

Can’t go down that rabbit hole again. I understand the sentiment though, some good memories coming home from work, popping my latest cd into the Marantz CD6000, firing up the tube amp and tripping out on the HD600’s.

 

This is what’s always bothered me about the “I want my system to recreate the music as the recording engineer intended” crowd. I spent some time over a decade ago in recording studios, and considered making a career out of it (spoiler, I didn’t), and I remember engineers spending way more time concerned about whether their mix would sound good on crappy car speakers or ear buds than they ever did about how it would sound in some rich a**hole’s $100,000+ system. Doing things like putting the mix in mono to hear phase problems, or having a second pair of crappy monitors to check for weird artifacts. I’d estimate 50% of mixing was the art of creating a good mix, and the other 50% was tweaking it to sound good on as many systems as possible. Nowadays, I wouldn’t be surprised to find a studio with a Sonos installed to check mixes.

My personal approach to HiFi is to make a system that plays the music I like just the way I want it to, artist’s and engineer’s intentions be damned.

 

My favorite system ever was a Kenwood receiver I got from Goodwill and a pair of JBL L40s off Craigslist. The whole system cost less than $100, and I used a MacBook Pro’s line out as a source (side bar - I’m convinced old MB Pros had better DACs in them than the ones today)

I might be misremembering that system as better than it really was through the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia, but one thing was for certain - I never questioned whether that system was “good enough” or if it could be better. I was truly content.

Life happened, and the amp was given away, the speakers were damaged after being put in storage and the laptop died. After that, I ended up on the HiFi hamster wheel, and have been trying to get off with a system that is good enough to just be content.

 

I don't want to de-rail the conversation in this thread, but you are right. Matter of fact, when I did mixes for school, the teachers would play it both on the mains and the NS-10's. And if you are going to have a Top 10 record, then yea, I can see why you would need mono compatibility for single BT speakers, or loudness wars to be louder than the last song, or to be played on a variety of systems. This is always why I also hated Auratone speakers, they are far worse than NS-10's. But yes, I knew many that would watch that lissajous meter like a hawk and even a couple of guys that used boomboxes that had line inputs and would sit that right at the front of the console as yet another LCD check. Ugh.

I DO know that the good stuff, (think Verve and Telarc) are recording, mixing, and mastering for hi-fi systems. I think this is why people also geek out over Steve Hoffman masters. Listening to all these new batches of bands though has me very happy (eg. Spoon, Gretta van Fleet, Rival Sons, Jason Isbell, etc.) proving that you can have good sound without being mono and compressed to death, although not as uber hi-fi as some live jazz recording. But this fits into what I was discussing earlier....I mean, MOST of my collection is NOT the really good Verve/Telarc stuff.

I remember having debates in my head, (I don't anymore...at least on this subject), if I need to upgrade my SL-1200 to something exotic, or jump the boat and go MC with a badass SUT. Then I realized like only 5 records I have would truly benefit. Like I am going to get that expensive stuff just to play bargain basement 70's and 80's vinyl. Do I really need stuffs to enjoy Reggatta de Blanc that I picked up for $3.99?

 

Yes

 

The Fiero was at least consistent. The new Vette is two different cars. The front is from one, the back from another.

On topic, every day when I go on my walk I'm amazed at how good the KCS-75 off an Apple dongle and phone is. Total pleasure.

 

The Auratones were often used to check how the mix would sound on a car radio (NOT stereo.) We're talking car radios of the 1940's to 1960's. Wanted the listening audience to buy records they would hear while driving. Very different situation 60 ~ 70 years ago.

 

Voxative Ampeggio is entry level HI-END.
This can not be stressed enough, a loudspeaker is always a compromise.
I will disagree on one point. When half a million is a pocket change for you and size is not limiting factor - you will get damn close to perfection in all regards of sound.
On the other hand with a rebel mentality and a decade of tinkering a rapedungeon setup with some great modded equipment gets you there as well with a zero placeholder less in the cost bracket.

 

The fallacy that all True Hi-End sounds amazing is easily disproven with one weekend at a stereo convention. So many of those high end components sound like absolute ass. If that stuff were $300 I’d say yeah okay I don’t like it but whatever. But when it’s $30,000 I get upset because at that price I should be transcending to heaven in a goddamned chariot, not on a highway to hell in a flaming toboggan.

Anyway these days my setup is a Fosi class D amp to a Nobsound E6 (toobz) preamp to NHT SB-3 speakers and this honestly sounds so good to me that I have no desire to upgrade. My main headphone amp is a Schiit Vali 1, my main IEM amplification is a $70 USB dongle. I’m down to two headphones, an ETA O2 and a Porta Pro, and two wired IEMs, an IE 600 and the Truthear HOLA. And my most used portable transducer is my AirPods Pro 2. I’m really not tempted by much more these days.

 

I don't know if I will get my amplifier repaired. It was only around $1k (and I paid half price) and my speakers are low cost, built by someone I knew on another forum.

I'm thinking of a pair of JBL 305 or 306. Just direct from the MOTU M4. It's approaching low end! But it will be very real, and probably as listenable as I need these days. HD800 will still be there --- but I dislike using 'phones if I don't have to. I might even go for one of those single-box things that also does bluetooth et al.

Real world. There will still be music in it

Shouldn't we differentiate between high-end and high-price? No doubt the industry doesn't want us to. Anyway, there will always be price-tag buyers, they will always have that market.

 

That $30,000=$300 to a lot of people at "Audio Shows"

 

$300 is still money, and to some that’s still a lot.

But for that kind of layout you still can get 80-90% there in terms of enjoyment. I’m not shilling for Schiit but a Modi + Piety/Vali is probably all one needs.