Merv's Politically Incorrect Audio Blog

Oh no, I wasn’t disagreeing with you. I was surprised that some here were trying to equate the two as if “both sides” were still a compelling argument after an attempted coup by fascists.

There have been reports of off duty law enforcement in the crowd at the capitol. The difference in the response was absolutely expected by anyone paying attention. Lots of white supremacists and white supremacist sympathizers in law enforcement and the military.

 

No offense, but I'm sick of tired talking about race grievances because it is not the real conversation to have here.

What we should be talking about laws/policies that take the race out of everything. I'm not a fan of BLM, but that group does share some of the goals like me who are warry of laws that allow the police to get away of dumb shit like blowing up a house and demand qualified immunity. Too bad the Supreme Court refused to hear that case. I'm also not a fan of the death penalty due to it's a giant ass waste of taxpayer money when they keep appealing the decision left/right (including here in FL) and folks are dying in death row without being killed by the state. Also, can we 100% be sure that we are putting someone to death?

But talk about policies with a very partisan perspective when we should be talking about laws and how it is applied is the direction I think we should go. I know BLM folks are into Unions, but they should talk about busting the Police Unions who don't want qualified immunity to go away and prefer laws that benefit their line of work. No different than having an Union fighting to not pass right to work laws.

You win the conversation on substance, like why we have these laws in the state/federal level in the first place? Keep talking about race grievances is a major turn-off for most people.

FL just introduced finally in the FL House/Senate an Anti-Riot law after talking about it for a last few months. It's much weaker than what Desantis wanted, but more/less it is just raising the penalties of damaging property (which was already high to begin with), punish local governments here in FL who slash their police funding by opening them to lawsuits, discussing what a mob is, doxxing is a crime, and protecting monument. Some in the left here are calling it an attack on first amendment rights and the Confederacy statues (even if the law said that the Slavery monument and the Holocaust monument is protected). However, the bill is just talking about those who committed a crime.

I read the bill on the FL Senate site, my issue with the bill is that it doesn't explain what a riot means. The bill definition of a mod is pretty vague. What the people who are against this bill should really say is that it would give the FL DA too much power to decide what's a riot and what's a mob. It doesn't even have to be a BLM protest or anything. It could be three guys by the name of Bubba fighting over a gator and hit someone on their property who don't want to hurt the gator. The Mob definition does at least said that it takes a minimum of two people to be a Mob. Also, I'm concerns that the doxxing part of the bill can be misused over stupid crap from the FL DA when they hit someone for that.

That's what IMO we should have having a conversation about this bill, just like any bill/law that perhaps targets FL Laws are stern as is, which honestly I don't see the point of having this bill in the first place. Here's how it is going down. Since this bill is supported by the FL GOP in both House/Senate chambers and by Desantis, all the GOP folks will vote yes on it, the FL Dems will vote no, Desantis will sign the bill into law, then the FL Dems will sue the bill without even doing a good job about it in court. During this time the public opinion will be for this bill without the majority of Floridians understanding what the bill is really about, and it is opening to the FL Dems to get wack again in the midterms because people think FL Dems are not for the police, all while the Police Unions are getting extra support from the FL GOP, who will then continue to send money to the FL GOP coffins. More/less it's a stereotypical wedge issue to generate more checkbox GOP/Dem voters which is the norm.

The bill is mostly a waste of time, but at the same time there's some things that just doesn't explain enough about the bill. But who cares, people will continue to move down to FL because of the law/order message, and of course new GOP voters since they are too lazy/don't care enough to know what are inside these bills.

Justice Gorsuch said it best: A vague law is no law at all. I'm sick of vague shit into our local laws, super confusing, and it is open to abuse. This is something that BLM, leftist groups, and other groups should focus on. They won't, since a slogan sounds better and ID politics. Too bad they aren't focusing shit like this, but I'm not surprised.

In funnier news, I had these bumper stickers for awhile. Thankfully no one gave me the finger or wanna slash my tires.

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said about the substance of these laws. However I think it’s fair to acknowledge the context in which the BLM protests occurred versus the context in which the capitol insurrection occurred, and race is inextricably tied up in that. We can hold both things to be true at the same time. The police have become militarized, immune to consequences, and separated from the communities they’re supposed to serve. There’s also a racial bias amongst law enforcement. Both things are true.

 

I was outraged and disgusted by the capitol riot. They should all have been thrown in jail. Having guys smiling for the camera as they carry around the speaker of the house podium... smh.

I was outraged and disgusted by Seattle and Portland. They should all have been thrown in jail. Having guys posing for the camera with assault weapons as they block off city streets and neighborhoods... smh.

How the F did this country get to this point? These are not Left Wing or Right Wing issues and trying to color them red or blue is beyond ridiculous. We should ALL be outraged and disgusted by these acts. There should be no excuse making for any of this shite, from either side of the aisle. If someone tries to excuse any of it as justified, then they are part of the problem.

Sorry, I try to stay out of this stuff for the reasons @rhythmdevils devils mentioned, but this has become just too much to read anymore.
------edit for typo--------

 

Take your reasonable arguments and brace yourself for a shitstorm. You just insulted both sides, and they will hate you, never forget or forgive, and brand you a fascist (if left-leaning) or a cuck (if right-leaning). Then the more erudite will cite learned academic research showing that the political center does not exist and merely consists of inconsistent extremes (I'm not making this up, see https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/lsq.12110 and read the full text on Sci-Hub).

 

Portland and the Seattle Autonomous Zone are two different things and people should stop conflating them.

 

It's not directly comparable. On one level I agree and said so - the symbolic meaning of attacking the capital the is different than say looting an electronics store, although the difference is blurred when attacking and occupying a local police station or a few city blocks. For local people (and we are all local people), the revolution against the order that police stations and the police themselves embody is worse than the Capital building because what happens in far off Washington does not directly threaten your well being, your family, your job, etc.

To build upon what @YMO was saying, BLM is much much more than a simple affirmation that "Black Lives Matter". It is an assertion about history and class, about what it means, and what to do about it. It is the utter rejection of the MLK and classical liberal affirmation that the color of your skin should not count against you and that whatever happened in the past (nobody can fix that) from this point forward we are equal. BLM rather says that race conflict is part of nature - that because I am a white man I am racist by nature, and the only way to "fix" that is to disempower me by force, sturcturely. BLM is the rejection of morality and character and its replacement by raw power. To reject BLM (and I reject it) is not to simplistically reject the real problems of race and resultant grievance, rather it is to reject the solution that BLM brings to the table

Trumpism is likewise not a simplistic phenomenon. Beyond the conspiracies it is the recognition that the non politically liberal non university educated working class (the deplorables) have been getting the shaft politically and culturally (by both parties) for at least 50 years. Yes, Trump lost the election and the conspiracies and facism (there were real facists at the capital) is nuts, but the grievance is just as real as the race one above and from where the (very legitamate) political energy comes from.

The hypocrisy of the left in this matter is real as well. A kind of continual revolution within institutions and culture is a defining characteristic of what it means to be left, just as conservation of those same institutions and culture is the very definition of what it means to be conservative. BLM and its political supporters have explicitly called to "bring the system down", except they want it to be in such a way to further their agenda. You want us to believe that a right wing coup is somehow worse than a left wing one...

It's complicated. IMO A big part of it is weakening of classical liberalism within our society - that thing that most everyone in our culture used to agree on. Now that we are truly multi-cultural, we have no common culture and agreement as to what is the good life, what is right and wrong, what is true and false and how do we determine it, etc.

 

And those can be valid points, which is why we need to focus on the laws and how they are stated on the books. You won't win just talking about ID Politics.

No, because there shouldn't be any Autonomous zones to begin with. Those zones more/less tell regular folks that a mayor can't even run a city. This and the defund the police slogan (which they need to stop saying it) is pretty much what killed Biden in South Florida. One reason why people move to FL is for law and order image, not a bunch of pushovers wearing Skinny Jeans in Portland and Seattle. If you want to know why FL is just about to become a red state, it is stuff like this and the image of the Democrats being the side of the crime-doers. I met plenty of people who recently moved to FL who love that the police actually arrest people, and for the most part the state is "clean." Furthermore, the Latinos in South FL (who are mostly first gen immigrants from Latin America) don't want the state/country to become some of the shitholes in South America.

For the fact that you even said that the Portland and Seattle Autonomous Zones are two different things is the problem.

 

I’m going to strongly disagree with you about BLM’s philosophy. You say that BLM argues that race conflict is part of nature, an argument I’ve never heard from a spokesperson of BLM or any significant voice on the left. BLM, like MLK, argues that racism is systemic, and built into the institutions of the US, but they also take pains to point out that the system can be changed. The question becomes is it sufficient to reform the system or is it necessary to construct a new system, but none of these are questions of nature. MLK has been sufficiently whitewashed that people think his message was simply one of peaceful coexistence, when in fact his arguments were founded on many of the same principles as BLM.

As for Trumpism, it’s fascist populism. Yes, it absolutely taps into other energies like economic disparity and the growing gap between political elites and the average person, but Trump’s answer is and always has been to attack, punish, and abuse a few chosen scapegoats (the Muslim ban, BLM/antifa/leftists, Democrats) instead of offering real solutions. Trump is just as detached and elite as anyone that his followers deride, he just knows a good con when he sees one.

 

No, you missed my point. There was NO autonomous zone in Portland. That only ever existed in Seattle. That’s why people need to stop conflating Seattle and Portland as if they were one consistent protest. Different cities, different dynamics.

 

Your not paying attention (at best - I suspect you agree with historical materialism rather you understand it or not). Look up Ibram X. Kendi, critical race theory, or even the statements of prominant Democratic leaders. I quoted Kendi on this thread (https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...incorrect-audio-blog.7261/page-78#post-324511):

"The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination.

The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination.

The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination."

That's simplistic. Trump offered real solutions, such as restructuring trade, supporting manufacturing, energy independence, real tax reform, etc. etc. You at least do see the truth of economic disparity, but I suspect you only see it in left wing historical frame.

 

Historical materialism is a useful but not sufficient lens through which to view society. I use it when I need it, like many lenses.

All of Trump’s solutions were straight out of the fascist isolationist playbook. His trade deals were worse than what he had prior, his tariffs hit working Americans the hardest. The tax reform was a love letter to the rich that will cost us for a long time to come. His immigration policies were racist, his attempts to rehabilitate manufacturing consisted mainly of him taking credit for preexisting deals. He was a conman who used the presidency for his own gain.

 

And you missed my point that even explaining it is the problem. Outside of Portland, people think there's the Autonomous Zones in Portland and Seattle. No one really cares what is the reality when they believe it. I met plenty of people here in FL who didn't want that shit in FL, which is why in South FL the normally Dem Latino voters went HARD for Trump this time around.

If you explain something you lost the battle. Don't explain what is Defund the Police when people think what the words actually met.

 

I don’t really care about Florida one way or another, I was having a discussion here in this thread.

 

You can look at what Happen on the Capitol Hill as what it really was, but no one is interested. Let's try.
Trump idiotic idea to bring thousands of supporters to DC after unsuccessful legal challenges to the election results was at the root of it. Then, Trump being Trump, he completely lost his mind "we will restore democracy", and then he lost control of the crowd. What started as a demonstration turned into storming of Capitol building. Stupid, useless, any adjective you want to add. People died, as it often happens in situation like that. It was a horrible day for the country, Trump and his family are political poison now, Republicans will need years to rebuild.

But that was not enough. we were told it was Pearl Harbor, organized coup, by of course white supremacists.
You could see the day after the event that it took the building administration a full day, involving more than a few furniture movers and a crew with powerful vacuum cleaners, to clean after Pearl Harbor. If they were available on Omaha Beach on D day, the surfing could resume one hour after the invasion.

My point is: what would it take for Americans to figure out that the country is on the ropes and needs your support. Because what is clear that the people who are supposed to be legislating on Capitol Hill and the media will not stop tearing it apart, if you do not stop them.
But now that for the Silicon Valley and the media, some "legislators" it is the Reichstagsbrand moment. Finally they have what they need to club "deplorables" into submission. And that, IMO, will lead to disaster.

 

Trump didn’t just lose in the courts. He’s insinuated for months that the only way he would lose would be through fraud. He and his admin did everything they could on the administrative end to ensure that the election would be weighted in Trump’s favor (DeJoy kneecapping the USPS in an attempt to prevent timely delivery of mail in ballots for example, pushing through a SCOTUS justice in a week right before an election in the hopes that SCOTUS would decide the election like they did in Bush v Gore, etc). Trump falsely claimed victory on election night, and then when it became clear he hadn’t won, he and his admin and several of his lackeys in Congress pushed outrageous conspiracy theories to back his claims of victory. His messaging has consistently been that he won and it’s only through cheating that it looks like he lost.

It’s in that context that he decided to hold a rally in DC the day before the electoral votes were to be certified by Congress. It’s in that context that he urged Mike Pence to overturn the electoral results in swing states. And it’s in that context that the unruly mob descended on the capitol building. And there are records of white supremacists planning to come to DC and start shit. It wasn’t a finely planned coup, but some groups did make plans and they did storm the capitol building. And this was done in defiance of the EC results, an attempt to keep Trump unlawfully in power. Just because it didn’t work doesn’t mean that it was meaningless. In fact, several historians have pointed out that fascist groups often make a failed attempt at grabbing power before they make their successful one. I don’t know why some people are so loathe to admit that white supremacy is real, white supremacists are real, and Donald Trump emboldened them to the point that we got the attack on the capitol building.

 

Pre-Nazi Germany tells us the fight to save American democracy is just beginning