Black Widow [Update] - Second round official, 100 amps total, single chassis

Josh, my set up is my laptop > Mutec 1.2 > Yggdrasil > Jensen Iso-Max > ZDS (or BW). Once I had the Jensen, I did not even bother to remove it to check how the music sounded without it.

 

@jexby got room in your luggage for a +1? that sounds insanely awesome. do it!! also thanks for the added impressions.

unrelatedly - to audio, not to india - my best childhood friend is kashmiri, i owe him a visit sometime.

 

Dude, you better walk the talk here.... I am planning to get an elephant to garland both of you on arrival....

 

Tbf, he did raise a few good points,

"Now, since a couple have sent me emails about the black widow, here is my explanation of whats wrong with the picture above. Now maybe in the 2 box version the board had to be that size, and was obviously stuffed into a box of a specific size. But designing that way is stupid. In the single box there is all sorts of room to make the board bigger and do a much higher quality layout with better and bigger heatsinks, and having the left and right channels be absolutely identical."

Looking at the internals of the single box BW, it does look a bit like a diy solution. Especially when compared to the Audio GD or Schiit stuff.

Im not expecting a super professional job, due to the additional cost from having it built in the states and the lack of economy of scale. however, I think it could've been better planned out internally.

I do like how it looks from the outside and how it feels. Cheap painted steel plates or not. No need for audio jewelry or expensive custom made quarter inch thick chassis. Just overkill for a small headphone amp.

I wont go into the technical arguments he raised since its out of my league.

 

I dislike the post above this one.

It's silly. EC is a small boutique company that made a limited run of amps that sound great at a reasonable price. Why are you bitching about internals when it has no effect on sound / performance? The size of the amp was made to match up with Gungnir Multibit so they could stack. Why exactly does the size of the PCBs need to be bigger or more spaces out? To make a competition happy? Bigger heatsinks? BW runs cooler than Ragnarok.

Is all of this bashing EC products just KG's frustration and insecurities coming out? People are buying Studio's instead of GS-X's, and gathering around Marv / sbaf, and not him. Way better content here.

We get it @Rotijon , you are a head case fan, you've posted or linked most of their recent conversations here and made it clear you get a bit tingly inside thinking about KG's amps. Please keep your soiled drawers over there dude.

 

The reason I left head-fi and joined here was because I was tired of circlejerks and not being able to give any honest opinions. Surely we are allowed to criticize EC as much as any other company here? I must confess I'm not fond if the painted chasis on the BW but I'm still gonna buy it anyways if/when it's being put on sale again.

 

I'm banned at headcase btw, when I told them jh is for retards and strongly defended my opinion.

Im not buddies with them, real life of online. But if kevin (and the rest) are insecure. They sure have a weird way of showing it, considering how vitriolic they can be towards new joiners who shill or post wantonly. You can't even count the amount of people who got booed out within 2 post or banned.

They also like Audio-gd, Schiit, TTVJ, Nagra, Pass, BAT and Ayre among others. Having stakes in so many companies, Kevin must be one of the richest dudes in audio.

It's not just about making good sound, it's about making things properly and the best you can and not shave off a little here or there, especially at the boards.

Its because people judge the amount they are willing to pay based on what they hear or what they think they hear, that we have this problem of overpricing in audio. Like it or not, the price must also be based on the workmanship and BOM.

Having said that, I still think the black widow is a nice piece of kit. I've actually owned one (2 box version). However, the one box version definitely not up to the standard I was expecting in terms of workmanship internally. The case work is fine by me.

 

I'm all for criticism of EC, just make it worthwhile criticism. Too boomy, too warm, needs more refinement / detail, better instrument timbre are things that are worth discussion. I personally like the case, but look / feel are decent conversation. The font on the front and the internal boards component spacing and layout are pretty insignificant and small things to whine about, IMO. I think this is all necessary dialog, helps others weigh what is important to them.

For what its worth I feel the same way about Ragnarok clicky noises when adjusting volume, I think its picky - others have serious displeasure from this. I tend to focus on bigger picture (great sounding amp for price) and things I find significant.

Usually people who pick things apart or bully have issues greater than the ones being criticized. I agree with your overpriced comment, just don't think it applies here.

 

@JoshMorr

"FLAVOR IS FOR PUSSIES !!" Chef Grant Atchez of Alinea (3 Michelin Starred Restaurant in Chicago).

When he said this, he meant that tasting good is the basic requirement for a meal. Especially so for a 3 starred restaurant.

With the price that EC is charging, they are now playing in the Michelin starred category of audio. Sounding good is a basic requirement. In case anyone says the GSX MK2 does not sound good, is like saying the food at "Sushi Yokitake" in tokyo sucks because you hate raw fish and they don't let you take it with ketchup. There will be alot of amazing and well made things in the world you will dislike due to your own preference, does not mean that its overpriced. Its just not for you.

Right now, the BW for me is like this amazing barbeque place that people will drive 1-2 hours for the ribs, except its priced at a michelin meal level. Not entirely unreasonable, but its definitely higher than it should be. Just because everyone around you is ripping people off, does not mean charging a higher than usual price is correct. (by my own arbitrary standards anyway).

Here's what 300 more can get you. You may dislike the sound, but you cant deny its well made and definitely worth the money (Due to the sheer amount of parts used), despite the ugly case work.

http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-9/Master-9EN.htm

 

I see your point, I just still disagree. I see your point of veiw, using your analogy, as the BBQ food isn't worth it because they gave you plastic silverware. I would prefer well cooked food, that tastes amazing and sit at a picnic table. Others prefer a great presentation, great waitstaff, fine china, and a small plate of exotic ingredients. Maybe we are discussing cultural differences, maybe not.

Audio-gd being "definitely worth the money" and EC being priced "higher than it should be" is subjective. $1,300 is alot of money for an amp, but lots of people at Tyll's Big Sound called it the best value going. I've heard the master 9 and 11, thought they were kinda blah, but also realize this doesn't fit my tastes or preferences. Both companies seem to be doing well, maybe different people are looking for different things.

 

In fairness he's not saying great BBQ isn't worth it at all, just that it's overpriced if you're paying fancy linen and flatware restaurant prices for it.

 

Since we're making food analogies here...

BBQ, Pizza, Chili. 3 foods I love but can be made 1000 different ways depending on where you live. Everyone has a different opinion on the proper way to make each. I make my own BBQ because locally everyone makes it with that overly sugary KC style sauce that I really don't care for. If I lived in Texas or the Carolinas I'd probably be in BBQ heaven. I make my own pizza because I'm a New York style guy and locally most people prefer the Chicago style and no one gets the NY style right. Chili...I pretty much like it all as long as it makes me break a sweat.

Audio is similar. The major "Chefs" each have their own style and following. It may be all good but there will be preferences as to what an individual considers right for them. I'm looking to buy a new amp in the next 6 mos. or so. It will probably either be a Black Widow or a MicroZotl 2. Both are very different, but until I can hear both I really don't have any idea which one I may like better.

 

Interesting you say that when many in here bitch about Audeze and HiFiMan when it comes to quality. Does that mean most in here are in this hobby for everything but the sound?

 

+1

As a tangent, though, Audio-GD has numerous quality issues with Master-11, NFB-1AMP, and other products. Issues include overheating (see customer-rigged outboard fans), random volume spikes, random attenuation, among others. The owner is often not very helpful in those cases, either, with feedback like "avoid static electricity". (WTF?) Sometimes he has sent parts to be installed that require the customer to solder and desolder, etc. So personally, while I simply don't care for their 'house sound' in the first place, even if I were tempted for some reason, I still wouldn't touch them with a 10' pole.

PS - I do love the neat and tidy layout in the GSX MK2. A work of art, even!! But I don't have much of a taste for sandpaper coated rocks. :-(

 

Huh?

I can get that sound IS what matters but PCB layout and parts selection (and value for money) are definitely important in this hobby. Grado RA-1 anybody? Hey it makes sounds! Not sure why you guys would think that these things don't matter. Custom case work is also one of the most expensive, time consuming, and hardest to get right parts of DIY building IE that's why you see much agd gear stuffed to the hilt with parts but with shoddy and thin paneling.

I do like EC amps. I haven't heard the BW but I sure would like to. The pragmatist in me knows where Rotijon is coming from and wouldn't say it is unfounded by any means. For the hobby to make any progress we should be able to hold our manufacturers up to high standards and I think that's ultimately what the HC camp and is getting at and I would hope many here would also agree.

I'm out!

 

If he had used the BW and found it to be way too hot and reasoned that heatsink size was the reason, I could buy that. If he had used the BW and found differences in the right and left channels that could be heard and/or measured and linked that to design, I could buy that. He didn't do either so I can't say that he raised good points. He simply used his disagreement with design decisions to imply that the BW was flawed. Just my 2 cents.