Apos x Audio Technica ATH-R70x Refine Headphone Review

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by purr1n, Sep 16, 2024.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yes in theory but no in practice. You are missing my point that most amps barely make any harmonic distortion compared to transducers. And the distortion that amps make tends to be predicable according to it's design / topology.

    A grain of salt isn't doing to make a large pot of stew any saltier. There is just not enough distortion from amps to add or subtract.

    SINAD is quite useless, but distortion graphs at X dbSPL, broken down in major harmonics, especially at higher levels do correlate to what we hear.

    The HD650 has it's veil because it highesh 3rd order in the high bass and below.

    ASR SINAD chasing is asinine though. SINAD past 55db to 75db won't be discernable. If stuff sounds different, it's going to be in the transients, which isn't covered by harmonic distortion measurements because these are inherently steady state (and in most cases averaged over time) measurements.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2024
  2. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Friend

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    The OG R70x has been my daily driver for over a year now. I applied just a light EQ and I was never able to beat them. Looks like the main difference other than the fancy color is the new earpads which look very comfy. That resolves the primary issue the R70x had, the earpads are kind of shallow. With that fixed this new version will be one of the most comfortable on the market.

    Headfi has a chart posted which shows the differences between the OG and this one soundwise. It actually looks extremely similar to how I EQed corrected the OG so that is fantastic. It is basically less upper mids, more upper bass and a little more mid treble.

    At 300 dollars these are a amazing deal. These are some of the best gaming headphones around, amazing imaging performance. Some Japanese game devs actually use the OG. The most famous one being Masayoshi Soken composer for Final Fantasy XIV and XVI.

    I hope that this version makes its way to Japan or at least the earpads do as I could happily use this version with no eq at all based on the FR charts.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Apos 570X Refine
    D2, D3, D4 with 1kHz at ~100dbSPL
    upload_2024-9-18_13-33-7.png

    Not unexpected for such an "open" design and relatively small driver. Highest distortion particularly second order (YEL) bleeding way into the high bass / lower mids. Mostly second order dominant, however third order (WHT) bleeds into things midbass and up.

    Subjectively, I do agree with what others have said with respect to better clarity to HD650. However as we have seen with other high clarity headphones / earphones with massive distortion, a snappy transient response will make up for the highish distortion. Case in point is the SR-1a. Massively high distortion in the lows (greater than this), but yet subjectively clearer than the "veiled" HD650. Perceived clarity or veil is likely the combination of distortion and transient response.

    I would like to do a distortion surface to compare though. An apples-apples distortion surface will give us a better idea of distortion across the spectrum across volume ranges. Read about distortion surfaces here. (ASR seemed to find what @atomicbob did here highly threatening): https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...n-surface-old-measurement-new-approach.13754/
     
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  4. donunus

    donunus Friend

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    I just got my pair today. Tonality is slightly more fun with random indie rock and 80s music but when cranking up music with lots of bass, the sound distorts while at the same spls my hd600 is not even breaking a sweat. I wonder if burn in tones down the distortion
     
  5. donunus

    donunus Friend

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    Oh by the way I had AD700, AD900, AD2000s before and spl before distorting is more like the ad700. The ad2000 could play really loud without breaking a sweat
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yeah, I immediately played Number Girl (not 80s, but they are like the Pixies or the punkier stuff early The Police). The R70X just begged for music like that it seemed. It doesn't like being super loud. For sure HD6x0 and AD2000 (larger driver I believe) can be cranked up more. Burn in via high SPL and measurements and tests and a lot of gaming didn't really do anything.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Apos x AT R70x Refine
    Second Harmonic
    Distortion Surface (absolute values)
    upload_2024-9-26_12-37-12.png

    Apos x AT R70x Refine
    Third Harmonic
    Distortion Surface (absolute values)
    upload_2024-9-26_12-39-14.png

    The R70x Refine tends to have highish second harmonic in the lows. This tends to be rise linearly with volume. The third harmonic is highish at high SPLs but rapidly goes down to nothing as we decrease the output. Interestingly the third harmonic tends to be more around the mid/high bass than the lower bass regions.

    Apos x AT R70x Refine
    Fourth Harmonic
    Distortion Surface (absolute values)
    upload_2024-9-26_12-41-5.png
     
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    Last edited: Sep 26, 2024
  8. evanft

    evanft Acquaintance

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    How does it compare to an unmodified HD6XX/650/600? At first blush they look like they may be similar.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    COMPARISON TO SENNHEISERS

    HD650 is more full bodied, laid back. R70X Refine's tonal signature* is more along the lines of the HD600, but instead has more mid-treble and less upper mids. Setups that work for the HD600 will do well with the R70X. I can see too neutral upstream components making the R70X sound thin. Anything that van give the R70X some grunt, wetness, fuller body. The R70X's bass level seems to be somewhere between HD650 and HD600, but doesn't hit as hard as either.

    Like the Sennheisers, the R70X Refine will have that dynamic headphone grain. (Noticing this more because I've been using the Koss ESP950 e-stat for gaming a lot lately). Some people like this grain. Some people don't, and they will go to planars. Overall the R70X Refine seems to have clarity on par with the HD600 (none of the HD650 veil, organicness, thickness), and is slightly faster in transients, better articulation, at the cost of some punch and grunt in the low end. However the R70X doesn't handle cranking it up loud as much as the Sennheisers.

    PUR: HD650
    BLU: HD600
    YEL: R70X Refine
    upload_2024-9-27_9-17-4.png

    SYNERGIES

    I have mostly been running Yggdrasil OG/A2 and the Magni Unity. The Unity is just a nick more full-bodied and smoother in the higher than the prior Magni. I was concerned about the OG/A2's incisive transients, but with Magni Unity, the highs turned out alright.

    Another setup would be the Piety and OG Modi MB (or MMB2 in NOS). The Piety can be bright on the top end without a laid back classical R2R sounding source.

    FITMENT

    Again, warning for small heads. If this fit my big fat head better, they would be in my regular rotation. I like the lightweight feel. The super open sound remind me of the Sony MA900s with the cups danging in front like the HD800s, but with actual open space. These are a better version of the MA900s. Faster, more resolving, just as open (again see CSDs), light and comfy.

    *FR doesn't mean everything: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...oes-frequency-response-actually-matter.14667/
     
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    Last edited: Sep 27, 2024
  10. Robson

    Robson New

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    Thanks for your impressions/measurements on this one.

    Any thoughts on OG/A2 with Pietus Maximus? IDK if you still have one around.

    I guess I will find out, mine is in the 2nd batch shipping. And I have other amps to try it with, so we'll see...
     
  11. bigjako

    bigjako Almost "Made"

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    I apologize that this is more noise than signal, but the Refine was one of the cans I most wanted to try at Canjam last weekend and I listened to it on both a Topping SS amp and Apos's Gremlin mini-OTL (I forget the DAC, sorry) and it was just 'right' to me. On the Gremlin it had more dynamic range, but keep in mind this was show conditions (I don't know why people think shows are good places to scream at each other, BTW).

    I tried to buy one at the show, but they weren't selling, and I bought one once I got home. It's a really good headphone, similar to the JAR650 but with a bigger stage from my listening there and at $299, why not right? (if it matters, the other highlights for me were the CC Closed, SJY Horizon, Auribus Sierra, R70x Refine, HiFi ForAll Dahlia, in that order, and the Cayin Soul and tube-optimized Aegis, in that order).

    The best shorthand description I could give (above conditions noted) is a 650 without a veil and an expanded stage. f**k yeah, I loved it and so did everyone I steered towards it. Right, big and smooth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2024
  12. shuto

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    Any plans to get a Schiit Gunnr? This paired with a Gunnr sounds like a nice gaming combo.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yup. I got a Gunnr. Review pending, but not in the context of the R70X Refine as this headphone is out on loaner.
     
  14. shuto

    shuto Acquaintance

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    For @purr1n or anyone else with on-ears experience with both: Would these be a full upgrade over the Drop/ Hifiman HE5xx, in terms of resolution, bass depth and dynamics? I've been using the HE5XX for two years now, in part due to the group's recommendation here but the R70x Refine sounds like something I'd enjoy quite a bit. The one drawback for me is it seems like the R70X is a fair bit less efficient, so I'd definitely have to get a desktop amp again. (My Go Blu handles the HE5XX okay, but probably won't cut it for these.)
     
  15. Nuhapaatti

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    Has anyone done comparison with the original R70x's with the refined pads on them? Would be interesting see the results since this would give us information about how the refined version is re-tuned to be used with the new pads. Just for curiosity!

    I've been using my OG R70x's for years now as my daily drivers and I've really haven't had any need for new headphones since I bought those, I don't even remember how many years back, and that proves the endgame is real, for me at least.

    EDIT: Only quirk on these headphones for the hobbyist who likes to make cables for headphones (just for fun, I didn't find the original cable bad in anyway, it was long, yes, but you can always roll it up and put some cable choke on it, I never understood the hate against it) is the 2,5mm locking interconnection, because I cannot get those locally. I have bought 3,5mm terminals though, and might try to fit those inside so any 3,5mm connections could be used in my future cables!
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Different. The HE5XX is a very nice entry level planar. I still recommend it. I think you can say that the lows will be cleaner and have more heft on the HE5XX, especially when the volume is cranked up. The R70X Refine does take more of a twist of the volume knob, but this is just voltage sensitivity. As long as you can get enough volume gain the Go Blu, then you are fine. However I do feel that the R70X Refine does scale (more resolving, larger headstage) more with better gear. Ultimately, the R70X and HE5XX are complementary in many ways, each doing well what the other doesn't do well.
     
  17. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    [​IMG]

    After spending a week with the Audio Technica ATH-R70x Refine loaner, my evaluation leans toward the positive side, particularly considering its price point. While these headphones excel in several areas, potential buyers should be aware of certain compromises that come with this price segment.

    The comfort is generally excellent, particularly for users with small to medium-sized heads. The lightweight design and wing-adjustment headband system aim to make these headphones disappear during extended listening sessions. However, those with larger heads may struggle to achieve optimal vertical adjustment and proper seal – an issue I encountered during my evaluation period.

    Sonically, the R70x Refine presents an interesting value proposition in its price bracket. The frequency response exhibits remarkable neutrality both objectively and subjectively, though with slightly emphasized mid-treble and somewhat reduced upper mids. The spatial presentation is notably impressive for this price point, delivering an open, airy soundstage that exceeds expectations. While the overall sonic character leans toward a slower, more relaxed presentation (likely due to its frequency response), the transient performance surprisingly maintains sharp enough attack and decay characteristics – comparable to a well-modded HD650, if not quite reaching the speed of high-end electrostatics or flagship planar magnetic headphones.

    The bass response merits special attention. Extension is surprisingly good, easily reaching the fundamental notes of pipe organs. However, the bass character tends toward thickness and warmth – possibly an intentional design choice to compensate for potential seal issues. While bass textures remain well-defined, the impact and punch fall somewhat short compared to direct competitors. That said, finding significantly better bass performance at this price point without other compromises proves challenging.

    Regarding amplification, these headphones demonstrate less sensitivity to amplifier quality than one might expect given their specifications. While their relatively low sensitivity paired with moderate impedance demands adequate power to achieve proper dynamics, they don't require the careful amplifier matching that HD6X0 series headphones often need.

    To my ears, the R70x Refine clearly demonstrates influence from the 6 series in its tuning approach. The characteristic slight upper midrange veil reminiscent of Sennheiser's design is present here as well. Through extensive A/B testing with a KISS-modded HD650, I found the R70x Refine matches it in overall detail retrieval capability. The R70x Refine offers superior air and soundstage width while trading off some of the HD650K's midrange clarity and emphasis. Plus, the modded HD650 still maintains a slight edge in bass control.

    After some critical evaluation, I've come to view the R70x Refine as a capable performer that should particularly appeal to budget-conscious audiophiles who prioritize soundstage presentation and technical performance over absolute clarity. Audio-Technica and Apos deserve my compliment because they have achieved something noteworthy here – creating headphones that remain performant and pleasant within its price segment.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Note that each curve is averaged over the five different measurements (with respectively different placements).
     
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  18. Mystic

    Mystic Mystique's Spiritual Advisor

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    My thoughts as I was listening to these:

    Soekris 2541 -> Mjolnir 3

    Bass leaves something to be desired. Doesn’t hit particularly low and the mid bass is pretty flat. I prefer a small hump here to provide some impact, similar to Sennheiser 600 series.

    Open sounding, if a little grainy compared to the 600s. Very lightweight on the head. Small ear opening.

    Resolves treble detail a little better than 600s.
    Wider soundstage than senns.

    Overall impressions: Meh.

    Let’s try the Studio B.

    Holy shit, there’s the bass. Amp swap is making a big difference. Bass is no longer anemic and I’d say on par with 600, probably cleaner sounding.

    Vocals are also more real and full sounding, though I’d still say the mids of the Senns are just a little better overall. Same thoughts about the treble as when they were plugged into the MJ3, just better balanced now that the mids and bass is more filled in.

    Overall impressions: Not meh. Very nice. Definitely worth $300 imo.
     
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