BWC (Big Woofer Club): Why Big Woofers Matter

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by nishan99, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. Grattle

    Grattle Friend

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    I have one KM750, with a 4ohm sub connected to it in bridged mode. I just know the voice coil gets hot, as evidenced by the cap feeling really warm. If I don’t drive it hard, it’s normal. Wife is at the beach, so I’ve been rocking out. On a whim, I touched the woofer dust cap, and was concerned by how hot it was. I don’t want to cook my beloved subwoofer.

    The new Royal Blood album is a subwoofer workout. :punk:
     
  2. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Nothing happens to the load. It is said as 'equivalent'. Two things do change: maximum voltage swing doubles and accordingly to the same load current swing doubles (Ohm's law), unless the load is changed to higher one. Reason, why amps in bridge operation are rated for twice the load in ohms is the current limitation (or the psu can not simply supply 2x the power).
     
  3. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    A good discussion about subwoofers with large, low excursion drivers.

     
  4. 7seven

    7seven Acquaintance

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    Any thoughts or experiences with guitar/instrument woofers?

    Looking at old JBL E series, some of the lowest Qts and Le with highest sensitivity I've seen.
    Being designed for instruments is sort of reassuring if anything, making sure they sound smooth/pleasant/musical would surely be a high priority for them.
     
  5. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    After reading this a dozen years ago I always wanted to hear these.

    http://www.nutshellhifi.com/MLS/MLS6.html
    https://www.tonetubby.com/all-products/alnico-red/
     
  6. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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  7. 7seven

    7seven Acquaintance

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    16Ω drivers are another interesting topic. Whether it is a rule or coincidence I notice Qts is often higher for them, annoyingly a lot 16Ω versions do not have datasheet ,

    Unless it's like BL and Le, which appear to increase with higher impedance but are effectively the same, their impact is relative to Re.

    Come to think of it, Le was usually not much higher in 16Ω versions, not double anyway, so technically the 'faster' drivers. shorter coil might explain the higher Qts/Qes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    The E series stuff is super good if you want dynamics, impact, and clean sound. They are drier sounding than most people think. Downside is the paper diaphragms don't have the super clean and fast decay as modern materials (or even the latest JBL paper stuff), but their transient attack is faster. The latest JBL stuff isn't as fast; however they do have a bit more heft and cleaner decay.

    These below use the E series for woofer and mid. They still sit in my living room. They can either be powered by my 65W PP or 3W SET. The 3W SET can crank out large orchestral or electronic music to well over a 100db SPL sustained (peak is even higher) without strain. This is what ~100db sensitivity gives you. Audiophools make fun of me behind my back on Discord for using "PA" speakers. But these guys are bitter posers who've never listened to live music, or play guitar, drums, bass reinforced with good gear.

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/jbl-cabaret-4698b-speaker-bwc-alert.7412/

    Too bad JBL doesn't make the E series anymore. In fact, they are making their drivers less available and more expensive. They just want to sell pros super expensive speaker systems that require the Crown amps with the DSP profiles. Crown and JBL are part of Harmon, so they got a pretty good scam going.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
  9. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    Harman is now Samsung.

    QSC DSP can run circles around Crown.

    Samsung is ruining both brands.
     
  10. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    Those same types have been doing the exact same thing to the hosts of various British forums for decades now because they run Tannoys.
     
  11. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    I have been looking for a change of pace from my current Eminence Beta 12CX/Selenuim D220Ti coaxial speakers.

    While these work a treat in a concrete bunker, they lack midbass punch in my open space.

    Big horn speakers are a relative new experience for me and would like to see how they compare to my current speakers.

    Gonna start building these:
    https://celestion.com/blog/build-this-15-two-way-pa-cabinet-design/

    These seems to fulfill most of my criteria:
    - Bassdriver that can work a sealed cabin till 80hz
    - good compression driver
    - high sensitivity
    - professional crossover design
    - low cost
    - easily accessible parts

    While the bassdriver looks a bit lightweight, and nothing very advanced tech wise, it most likely will be pretty fast and seems rather smooth till about 2khz.

    My only real concern here is that most people seems to have a crossover of about 1.5 khz or so and these seems to be have a crossover of 2.1khz, which might be a bit high for the LF driver, as I assume this is designed for max SPL and less for high fidelity.

    I guess the only way to find out is to build it and try...
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
  12. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    That seems like a good design to try. I want to add that I think a lot of designed-for-PA systems cross the HF driver over higher than needed for home hifi use. Here's my 2-way horn system (Beyma 18" driver on open baffle, Faital so-called 300Hz tractrix horn that actuallly starts rolling off at 5 to 600Hz). so if you're up for crossover experimentation, you might be able to go an octave lower and suppress some of the breakup that's likely to be there on your LF driver.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    I asked, and Celestion said that I could drop the crossover frequency easily down to about 1.5khz without any issues. That could be a good starting point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
  14. HotRatSalad

    HotRatSalad Friend

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    Thinking about building the seas A26 speaker. Want new speakers but everything that's big woof is big $$ and there's practically none even at my local place fidelis audio besides harbeths. I don't want skinny speakers with multiple 6 or 8 inch woofers again. I have a pair of psb image T6 I got locally years ago for $350. Recently heard a set of triangle bro3 and was pretty surprised how big they sounded and how low they reached.

    What do you guys think of the KLH model 5 ? Was wondering how close that A26 kit is or of it's a wash. Other options would be used stuff which I'm always on the lookout for but I always miss things. Would spend $2k.
     
  15. Riotvan

    Riotvan Got lost for three weeks at Delft City Hall

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    Murphythecat has experience with the A26. Read his posts about it here and on stevehoffman.
     
  16. HotRatSalad

    HotRatSalad Friend

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    Just finished up with all that and some other people's impressions. Unfortunately I have not heard anything they compare to so that's why I through that KLH comparison in there. After seeing how easy it is to build and the cabs come assembled, is it worth the $1634 ? I guess I'll find out.
     
  17. Riotvan

    Riotvan Got lost for three weeks at Delft City Hall

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    Yeah only way to be sure and i can think of worse first speaker builds(assuming it is your first).
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    The KLH 5 looks like a colossal POS. 88db actual sensitivity, but cheating since impedance drops below 4-ohms at 100Hz (I'd be fine if it drops that low in the highs, but lows is where the amp will be providing juice). For a 10" that starts to take a shit at 50Hz, it's rather pathetic. Stupid stupid rationale given for not going with a ported design. The response is tuned to go boom boom with a peak at 70Hz. If it didn't, probably would just get to 60Hz. The aluminum dome has a huge spike at 23kHz which we would never see if ASR did the measurements, but trust me, it's going to sound nasty. The drivers look like garbage with those reverse rubber surrounds. Ultimately it looks like a China special. This is not a BWC speaker. However, I'm sure there will be plenty of YT reviewers singing its praises for free gear.

    BTW Henry Kloss is dead. He's been dead for 20 years. He also left KLH in 1967.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2022
  19. The Zone

    The Zone Rando

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    I have to jump in here with a big amen. Twenty-five years into this hobby, I thought I was beyond getting tricked by the Stereophile/YouTube reviewer contingent, but I let myself get sucked into the KLH Model 5 hype. My entry into the hobby was my grandfather passing down a set of Advent loudspeakers... I still own them today. They aren't in my main system, and I recognize their limitations, but in the office, call it vintage charm, call it nostalgia, whatever it is, I still enjoy listening to them. So I found the idea of something in that lineage (at least visually anyway) appealing.

    But wow are these awful. Modern recordings do indeed go boom boom at 70Hz -- it's completely overdone (60/70s recordings sound merely anemic). Worse, the upper midrange and treble are gratingly metallic -- for reference, they make the Focal aluminum/magnesium driver headphones sound like HD650. I wasted time experimenting with a ridiculous number of amps, trying to "fix" the KLH to no avail (props to Schiit Aegir for being the only one to allow these to approach listenable status).

    In the end, I sold them, and they were damaged in transit. I wrote the lost money off as the cost of getting them out of my house where they were a constant reminder that I am apparently still susceptible to bogus marketing.
     
  20. HotRatSalad

    HotRatSalad Friend

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    Wow I've seen them get such high praise, of course I wouldn't order them blind. That's a lot of poo for $2500 haha. Looks like the seas A26 kit might be it, unless I find something tasty that's used between now and September.
     

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