First time measuring Lawton Chambers on TH610 - minidsp EARS

Finally get to properly A/B test my Lawton Chambers...

Wild Ziricote
Wild Ziricote by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen
Wild Chechen by Hilton, on Flickr

Flame Marbled Walnut
Flame Marbled Walnut by Hilton, on Flickr

Black Limba
Black Limba by Hilton, on Flickr

Stock TH610 Walnut Cups - 1.4oz / 41grams - Type 1 - Janka Hardness 1010
LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

Lawton Black Limba Cups - 2.3oz / 65grams - Type 1 - Janka Hardness 490 > 840
LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

Lawton Flame Marbled Walnut - 2.4oz / 69grams - Type 1 - Janka Hardness 1010
LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

Lawton Wild Chechen - 3.4oz / 95grams - Type 4 - Janka Hardness 2250 > 2300
LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

Lawton Wild Ziricote - 4.1oz / 115grams - Type 5 - Janka Hardness 1970 > 2200
LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

LAWTON_Cup_Weights by Hilton, on Flickr

 

TH610 TH610 TH610... by Hilton, on Flickr

20230705_184815 by Hilton, on Flickr

Here's some measurements...
Im new to REW so excuse me if I got this wrong...

This is comparing a brand new pair of TH610 out of box with another brand new pair with Wild Chechen measured on minidsp EARS using the HEQ Mic calibration.
This is with a very light clamping of the HP to the EARS with a small elastic to properly seal the headphone at the top of the earcup.
As you can see the sub-bass is significantly better - Wild Chechen chambers are even flat down to 10hz (where I started the measurement from)
The occasional sibilance you could hear in stock TH610 is also drastically reduced as you can see with the dip at 3K compared with stock chambers.
Much more to come. I also have some "reference" original HD600's with new earpads to measure against and several other HP's.

Right Stock TH610 Black Walnut Chamber
RHQ-Stock by Hilton, on Flickr

Right TH610 Wild Chechen Chamber
RHQ-Chechen by Hilton, on Flickr

Right TH610 Wild Chechen vs Stock Walnut Chamber ( Purple Chechen / Orange Stock)
RHQ-Chechen-vs-Stock by Hilton, on Flickr


Black Limba
RHQ-Limba by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen vs Stock vs Black Limba (Purple/Orange/Green)
RHQ-Chechen-vs-Stock-vs-Limba by Hilton, on Flickr

Here's Flame Marble Walnut
RHQ-Marble by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Ziricote
RHQ-Ziricote by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen vs Stock vs Black Limba vs Flame Marble Walnut vs Wild Ziricote (Purple/Orange/Green/Yellow/Red)
RHQ-Chechen-vs-Stock-vs-Limba-vs-Marble-vs-Ziricote by Hilton, on Flickr

HD600
RHQ-HD600 by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen vs Stock vs Black Limba vs Flame Marble Walnut vs Wild Ziricote vs HD600 (Purple/Orange/Green/Yellow/Red/Light-Blue)
RHQ-Chechen-vs-Stock-vs-Limba-vs-Marble-vs-Ziricote-vs-HD600 by Hilton, on Flickr
Last one for today - with RAW Calibration file loaded in REW.

RAW-Chechen-vs-Stock-vs-Limba-vs-Marble-vs-Ziricote-vs-HD600 by Hilton, on Flickr

 

Was always looking for a database on these, thanks for the contribution! Will you be following up with distortion figures and CSD? I know the MiniDSP EARS isn't the best for those, but hey it's something.

 

I can - I have them recorded.. another time. its 2am and I should be in bed... school night and all... (work tomorrow)

 

What I find interesting, is compared to most of my listening notes from 2 years ago, the graphs corroborate what I thought i was hearing..

From 2 years ago
"Initial impressions of Wild Chechen...

Definitely fatter sub bass at 30-50hz and fuller bass around 80hz.
Still tight and fast sounding, not much difference in midrange and treble detected.

hmmmm. might have fixed the occassional sibilance around 6-8k! More listening required...."

"The fit and finish is spectacular!
The sound seems tighter but also deeper and fatter and also smoother in the upper midrage and lower treble where the stock TH610's have a tendancy to be siblant on some brightly recorded tracks.

The sparkle, air, separation, width and staging is there and even sweeter since the edge has been just so slightly taken away at around 5-6k.

Im my opinion this has made the TH610 the perfect headphones with the Wild Chechen. Not sure how I'm going to go with the others since this has spoilt me now I think!

The bass is just sooo good, just sounds like a really good fat dynamic and fast kick that you get in a good live gig in a small/medium room with warm and tight bass from bass guitar.

Listening to everything from Glitterbox EDM night club stuff, to Steely Dan Gaucho, Tracy Chapman Baby Can I Hold You - nice bass.. Super Tramp Still in Love..."

"Black Limba only a subtle difference in sound so far but definitely a little warmer sounding in the 70- 120hz region... No sign of sibilance."

"And Hoff Ensemble - Polarity... WOW - feels like im in the room with that beautiful double bass and Piano!"

and a quote from an email correspondence with Mark Lawton..
"Myself, I feel one can only obtain just so much info from measurements, the real test is listening.

Rather than just making a copy of the original cups, we wanted to make as many improvements as possible to the design.

Cups serve a purpose, acting as a combination of speaker cabinet and body of a musical instrument.

If you treat them seriously this way, you can get a lot more out of the headphone itself.

We are on the second generation of our cups, original versions (2008-2011) were also deeper than stock cups and were an excellent upgrade.

Ultimately, with some very sophisticated new equipment providing almost total control, we were able to do everything we ever wanted in terms of perfecting the shape inside and out, getting wall thicknesses to taper just right, etc.

Development of the current generation was extended, many forms/shapes were tried before we reached the shape you now see.

I may be in minority, but I genuinely prefer closed to open headphones, all other things being equal.

But the catch always is reduction of soundstage size and a bit of a reverberant “sea shell” effect.

Bigger cups with correct internal volume and shape really help push the soundstage out.

We use a small piece of acoustic foam inside the cups which helps prevent some of the internal reflections which also helps the enclosure disappear a bit.

Customers are constantly surprised at what a difference cups can make.

Enjoy!

Mark Lawton"

And some discussion from 2 years ago..
"The point of changing the headphone chamber material isnt just about coloration. It's being used in the right volume, size, shape and density to also increase the sound stage somewhat and bring a bit of a room sound to the headphone. But yes technically you're right - you don't want coloration..

But lets be frank here..

Normally you listen to music in a room that has it's own sound.. that can completely change the sound of a speaker.. so too different studios have different sound properties, as do many speaker designs and cabinet construction/material choices.

I have double walled highly cross braced speakers in my main home system (speaker baffel mount bracing within a speaker cabinet) and they are very neutral so I know exactly what you mean. (Speakers are mounted through to an internal mount rather than the front baffel to decouple the driver from the front baffel and absorb and disperse any mechanical vibration into the cabinet instead of off the speaker baffel into the room)"

My thoughts above correlate well with Harman Curve.. but to be honest it's not a perfect curve. but you all know that!

Some more thoughts from 2 years ago.. still very much the same today.
"Wild Ziricote Type 5 Lawton Cup..... VERY different

Much less bass overall and what's there is super tight and extends low. More forward mid range and top end - much more vocal oriented. No sharpness in treble but definitely brighter but not too bright."

And...
"H610 swapped over to Flame Marble Walnut Lawton Cups..

Ahhh thats better - a bit of warmth has come back as well as punch and depth to the bass. Very nice.

So far favourites are Wild Chechen (Type 4) followed by Black Limba (Type 1). Black Limba was much much warmer and fuller sounding. More listening to be done!"

Since the above statement 2 years ago, I actually changed over to the Black Limba for the majority of the last 2 years, and now I can see what I preferred them. A little more V-shapped but not too much so. A little more relaxed. (certainly not like the ridiculous TH900MKII that made my ears bleed!

And some more thoughts.. still true today 2 years later.
"Wild Chechen Type 4 definitely my favourite overall for refinement and versatility.
Tighter bass that extends low, still has good impact and force and a nice timbre and not boomy.

Sweet top end that shimmers but doesnt bite and still extends nicely.

Mid range is forward and full but not in your face.
Just my perfect kinda headphones!

Was listening back to back with Flame Marbled Walnut / Wild Chechen and the Walnut has a nice warmth but with double bass in Jazz it can be a little fuzzy sounding, while the Wild Chechen just sounds natural and full with great impact and articulation with just the right amount of warmth.
(Diana Krall - Look of Love & also Jeff Hamilton Treo - Live from San Pedro)

The walnut is great with dance and rock and just about everything else but the Wild Chechen has got me."


And this is my discovery 2 years ago that got me hooked on the Black Limba
"I've been using the Black Limba all day today and am really enjoying them.

Something I've noticed is the treble and upper midrange is slightly more gentle on the Black Limba. The Wild Chechen has a slightly harder edge to it so the Black Limba is very nice and punchy and warm but without the edgyness."

Some more thoughts on Black Limba - still wouldnt change my opinion 2 years later!
"The Bass in God is a Woman (Ariana Grande), Dancing With a Stranger (Sam Smith) and Magic (Kylie Minogue) .....are.... SUBLIME with the Black Limba's and the iFi iDSD on normal gain @ 1 o'clock on the volume dial! This is how POP music should sound. MAGIC. :yum Loud in yer face and thumping.

That's where type 1 or 2 woods truly rock! Type 4 Wild Chechen can't compete with the kick, power and warmth of the Type 1 Black Limba where you just wanna feel da bass... and that's without flicking the xBass or 3D switch on the Amp. Type 4 with the xBass come close to the Type 1 but still lacking a little warmth. They are still great though for rock or more complex music, or Jazz where you need a little more articulation in the bass."


And that brings us back to today.
Just for complete transparency, I calibrated the position of the headphones with 84db at 300hz and then adjusted the position to get equal bass and level between L & R at 70hz, 100hz and 1K. To avoid having to do multiple positions.

I love every one of these Lawton Chambers as much as the day I bought them. Now I can switch between them quickly for different listening moods and styles, with all the things I like about Harman Curve without stuffing around with EQ.
I love the fact my ears weren't deceiving me and now the measurements prove I have a half decent ear. Im not perfect Im not saying that... but I know what I like and what sounds good to me!

I hope some of you find this useful.
More headphone to come including some CSD, waterfall and distortion results. Im new to REW but understand the concept having started out in recording studios and doing live band work 25+ years ago. If anyone has some pointers or good threads on this I'm all EARS...
cheers
Hil

 

Time for the good stuff. Not sure if I've captured this correctly but I've given a shot!

TH610 Stock Chamber Waterfall
TH610 Stock Waterfall by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen Waterfall
RHQ Chechen Waterfall by Hilton, on Flickr

Black Limba Waterfall
RHQ Limba Waterfall by Hilton, on Flickr

Flame Marble Walnut Waterfall
RHQ Marble Walnut Waterfall by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Ziricote Waterfall
RHQ Ziricote Waterfall by Hilton, on Flickr

HD600 Waterfall
RHQ HD600 Waterfall by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Stock Chamber RT60 Decay
TH610 Stock RT60 decay by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen RT60 Decay
RHQ Chechen RT60 decay by Hilton, on Flickr

Black Limba RT60 Decay
RHQ Limba RT60 decay by Hilton, on Flickr

Flame Marble Walnut RT60 Decay
RHQ Marble Walnut RT60 decay by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Ziricote RT60 Decay
RHQ Ziricote RT60 decay by Hilton, on Flickr

HD600 RT60 Decay (contaminated by background noise???)
RHQ HD600 RT60 decay by Hilton, on Flickr

 

TH610 Stock Chamber Noise + THD
TH610 Noise by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen Noise + THD
RHQ Chechen Noise by Hilton, on Flickr

Black Limba Noise + THD
RHQ Limba Noise by Hilton, on Flickr

Flame Marble Walnut Noise + THD
RHQ Marble Walnut Noise by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Ziricote Noise + THD
RHQ Ziricote Noise by Hilton, on Flickr

HD600 Noise + THD
RHQ HD600 Noise by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Stock Chamber CSD
TH610 Stock CSD by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Chechen CSD
RHQ Chechen CSD by Hilton, on Flickr

Black Limba CSD
RHQ Limba CSD by Hilton, on Flickr

Flame Marble Walnut CSD
RHQ Marble Walnut CSD by Hilton, on Flickr


Wild Ziricote CSD
RHQ Ziricote CSD by Hilton, on Flickr

HD600 CSD
RHQ HD600 CSD by Hilton, on Flickr

 

I've also retested the TH610 stock Chamber again after someone thought 6db gain from Chambers alone seems too good to be true... but alas a retest clearly shows that the difference is indeed 6db (apart from the Ziricote which is a very dense heavy wood)

TH610 Stock Retest by Hilton, on Flickr

20230714_202801 by Hilton, on Flickr

 

Here's where it all began November 2020....
TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

Wild Ziricote - Wild Chechen - Black Limba - Flame Marbled Walnut

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

 

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 Lawton Wild Chechen cups by Hilton, on Flickr

 

YUM

Wild Chechen TH610 Lawton Cups by Hilton, on Flickr

Youtube video of Wild Chechen to Black Limba change over inbound...


Black Limba only a subtle difference in sound so far but definitely a little warmer sounding in the 70- 120hz region... No sign of sibilance.

Lawton Black Limba TH610 by Hilton, on Flickr

Lawton Black Limba TH610 by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610_Wild_Ziricote_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610_Wild_Ziricote_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610_Wild_Ziricote_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610_Wild_Ziricote_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610_Flame_Marble_Walnut_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr


TH610_Flame_Marble_Walnut_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr


TH610_Flame_Marble_Walnut_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr


TH610_Flame_Marble_Walnut_Lawton_Cups by Hilton, on Flickr

 

The portable rig....

iFi iDSD Signature
Note 20 ultra
iPad Mini v5
Brydge 7.9 Wireless keyboard
Shutter Remote BT Remote
Fostex TH610 w/ Lawton Chambers (or Campfire Audio Andromeda's)
ALO Litz Pure Silver 4.4 pentacon cable (mmcx to 2pin adapters)
Aviator crumbled satchel

iFi iDSD portable rig by Hilton, on Flickr


iFi iDSD portable rig by Hilton, on Flickr


iFi iDSD portable rig by Hilton, on Flickr

Perfect Fit!!
Perfect fit by Hilton, on Flickr


coffee and metal by Hilton, on Flickr

Gary_Moore_Run_For_Cover by Hilton, on Flickr

2pin2mmcx-th610 by Hilton, on Flickr

2pin2mmcx-litz by Hilton, on Flickr

2pin2mmcx-1 by Hilton, on Flickr

 

tmp_1656054847648 by Hilton, on Flickr

WinWing Orion 2 HOTAS Max Deskmount by Hilton, on Flickr

2022-07-11_08-46-20 by Hilton, on Flickr

20220218_221754 by Hilton, on Flickr

 

Just a quick request, any chance that you're able to use Imgur or another image hosting service? That'd allow you to more easily and cleanly embed the images here on the forum, not to mention Flickr is remarkably slow to load (though that could just be my horrible internet connection).

 

Here's some more thoughts...
When Stellia came out I was deciding on what headphones to buy and ended up going with the TH610 as I couldnt justify the cost difference.
They are different, but out of Elegia, Sen 820S, LCD2, Sony 7Zm2, ZR1 and 900Mk2 the TH610 had the most neutral sound while still extending down low with punch and not sounding hollow or boring like some of the others. Here’s my thoughts below from when i did a mini review.

TH610 headphones embarrassed many so called high-end closed-back phones.

Tried the Sony Z7m2 and Z1R but they were both a real let down - The 7Zm2 no matter which AMP i used just sound hollow and way too laid back in midrange, Z1R was fuller and warmer but just too bloated in midbass.

Focal Elegia - wow how bright do you like your mix… they have a clearly elevated top end that doesnt bite as such and it’s a bit tamer on ibasso DX220 AMP9 but with AMP1m2 and AMP8 they’d become fatiguing pretty quickly.

LCD 2 Closed actually sound quite good, but they are very bulky, heavy and ultimately the top end wasnt as smooth as I was expecting with a sibilant S on male and female vocals.

Fostex 900mk2 - wow that’s a lot of bottom end (way too much) and I was surprised how sibilant they were too - TH610 is much closer to neutral with a better top-end.

Senn HD820’s - yes they have that Sennheiser sound, wide wide imaging, luscious midrange, nicely present and airy treble, present low-end, nothing competes with the combined imaging and midrange and bottom end balance but are they worth $2400??. The bottom end was also a bit lacking compared to TH610.

The Stellia… How many unicorns, dolphins and dragons did they slay to create the ingredients for these?? Again I say OMFG!!! These are the real deal, end-game closed backs for sure, no doubt about it… and their price surely shows it, @ $4500 AU that’s even a bit rich for me. Having said that they do have a very slight bit of midbass bloat but the rest of the frequency range was very nice, full, present and accounted for with out any drawbacks except maybe being a bit dry at times compared to the TH610. The TH610 should’t be competing with any of the above mentioned headphones based on the TH610 price, but they most certainly do and have a sound I love apart from the occasional bite from brightly recorded mixes. I find the TH610 to be lush, warm, punchy, full and forward without being too pushy and a little bit of shimmer up top where it counts. Certain songs come on and I just have to crank the volume… i just cant help it they are such fun! Would I swap the TH610 for Stellia??? NO WAY. Would I like a pair of Stellia YES.

Stellia is the darker orange trace and TH610 the lighter trace. Similarish bottom end and midrange upto lower treble range but above that is where they differ the most.

Stellia was punchier and slightly into lower mids unfortunately. If the Stellia punch was 20 to 40hz lower they would have been absolutely killer. As it is the TH610 sound full, punchy and more natural… This tester actually said both headphones correlated to 69% of the Harman Curve and I’d 100% agree with the measurements based on my listening comparison.

Here's someone elses measurements I overlaid over each other.. a couple years ago before I got the minidsp EARS...
TH610vsStellia_Harman_Curve by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610vsTH900mk2-harman2017_curve by Hilton, on Flickr

TH610 by Hilton, on Flickr

TH900 by Hilton, on Flickr

These Measurements from > https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/archives/equipment/other.htm
Some other good measurements here > https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/catalog-reports.php?sp_1=1&tp=1#gsc.tab=0

 

I've tried a few other image hosting sites and I've been on flickr for years now.. be a bit hard to change now. it's lightening fast for me. (though im on 1Gbit Internet)

 

Erm ... did you buy all these cups? Aren't they a few hundred a pop? For that much money you could have bought a much more expensive headphone.

 

Oh the CSDs etc finally loaded in for me. Yeah my internet might just not be all that robust. @Hilton, pardon the request but may I be somewhat of a bother and ask for some settings changes? I could simply be ignorant, but it's a bit harder to digest the contents of the CSDs/waterfall graphs you'd provided. This was also taken with a MiniDSP EARS rig so not ideal, but it kinda works I guess.

Mode: Fourier; 10ms window; 0.3ms rise time; t= 4.00ms; Use CSD mode = yes
Perspective settings: X= 61; Y= 186; Z= 250

 

be

Be happy to do that tomorrow.

 

Yes I did and yes i could have. As you can see though the improvement in bottom end extension is significantly better, and the cups all do sound slightly different. At the time I bought them, the only other HP I liked was Stelia's @ $4500 AU and that is significantly more than a pair of TH610s and 4 Set of Lawtons cups. Yes I may have spent more than that now with another 2 pairs of TH610s, but that's also 2 years after my original purchase and I now have the option of selling at least 1 pair with a set of cups to recoup some money, and I've been able to properly A/B test them to some degree which was simply impossible with only 1 pair of TH610.
At the end of it I don't regret it and I still love the sound, comfort, quality and look of Lawton modded TH610s. I'll be doing some listening tests with my friends at minidisc.com.au in Chatswood and to share the Lawton love around. Maybe then I can find something else I like the sound of more. But for a closed back, I doubt it, given I've tried most of the big names in closed backs already.