Inspired by the "chinese abomination" thread. Here's my wideband version!

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by murphythecat, Oct 24, 2020.

  1. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    Ok, as im poor and cheap, I dont like to use my tube amp with my seas a26 all day long and destroy my tubes just for low music or watching tv, decided to build something: and really, I need to study a lot for a exam this monday, what's betetr to do then build a speaker instead?

    I have about 3 pairs of Minimus 7 speakers, which probably most of you know, use a metal cabinet with a 4 inch and soft dome.

    Decided to try to use the minimus enclosure, remove the XO and get a cheap Fostex wideband that will be a exact fit in that cab. So I bought the Fostex FF105wk since its one of the only wideband that could be a exact fit into the minimus woofer hole.
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-fullrange/fostex-ff105wk-4-full-range/


    Ive removed the XO in the cab, cut off a big piece of Roxul to cover the back of the cabinet and simply connected a wire from my amp directly to the wideband terminals:


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    The results sound is: no low bass, they drop off around 110 hz and are - 10 db at 89hz. a REL sub is in the plan.

    but that expressiveness, coherency of the mid to treble, is just so unique to the wideband sound. Microdetail seem to be everywhere. Voices sounds goosebump inducing and magic, like real sucking you in and making pay attention to the music. They have a immediacy that is hard to describe, I dare say ive never heard a 2-way sound as fast, or is it rather the coherency between the mids to treble that creates that typical wideband magic? im thinking out loud but no since even Kef ls50 coaxials are big tannoy you still hear that transition between the mid to tweeter. hum.

    I do not recommend without a good sub, and that 8khz peak will be bothersome for anyone wanting to use those for over 85 db, but at low volume, they are magical in ways that no multiways can do i think, they disappear but most importantly they make strings, voices so forward and the microdetails are just there, its just special. This whole audio thing is weird, how can something so cheap sound so good



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    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  2. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    here's the measurements from the right speaker only, taken at the listening position 8 feet away (my room is treated so it helps). the speaker position is not optimal directly close to the wall i lose some 100hz punch, and get a weird peak at 50hz.
    as can be seen, they really need a sub, probably stereo but I just hope a single rel will make this system ridiculously decent (for the $)


    [​IMG]
     
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  3. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    these measurements are the "minimus" but placed directly at the sweet spot where the seas A26 resides, again taken from the listening position:
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Very nice project, thanks for sharing!

    I completely agree with this, and it is something that I'll investigate for myself too.
    I do have a theory about this, and is that the culprit in a two way speaker usually is the tweeter. Let's see the typical example: two way speaker with paper 6.5-8 inch midwoofer/widebander + soft dome tweeter. What you describe (the fast, seamless sound) is always absent (at least, in my experience, which at the moment is more limited than what I would like), but more than blaming it on the crossover, I think that is the tweeter's fault. Not because lack of extension or crossover faults, but because the tone and transient response of the tweeter is different to the midwoofer, plus that the typical dome/ribbon tweeter doesn't have the "authority and ease" of the full range/midwoofer in the 2khz-6khz range.
    I'm thinking of building a 3 way speaker, but with 3 identical drivers (of course, of different size, example: 15' woofer + 8' mid + 1.6' tweeter, all cones of the same construction), to see if it is possible to get that full range driver sound without the drawbacks. This is going to be in the future, because in a couple of years I'll have more than enough cash to comission the custom drivers and build the speakers, at the moment is only an idea.

    Anyway, I think you're on the right track with this, there's something magical about that seamless, coherent sound of a full range driver if properly done.
     
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  5. ruinevil

    ruinevil Acquaintance

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    Is the bass any better if you plug the hole in the back where the binding posts/crossover used to be?
     
  6. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    no, my measurements showed no improvement at all with the "port" open or closed as tight as I could. the bass drops dead always around 110hz.
     
  7. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    I can totally understand the fascination bordering on wideband fetishism for audiophile
    https://anamightysound.com/a-modern...-de-laudiophile-part-1-western-electric-755a/

    Big wideband (8 inch to 10 inch) can almost rock, but the beam will be quite obvious and will need some sort of correction circuit. for some reason, they dont quite seem to have the magic of the smaller units (4, 5 inch) in the mids. The 755a do stuff ive never heard and from what I understand is a good middle ground at about 6.5''.
    those small fostex also do stuff that no two-ways ive ever heard can acheive. almost sucks to admit. in some way they seem very coloured, in another very attention grabbing, and instruments sounds like instruments, strings have all the expressivness, voices sounds like in that person is my room, its painfully obvious to admit: voices sounds realer then on my A26. my A26 simply dont do that level of expressivness. my experience with subs have always left something on the table, butt I havents tried the higher end REL models, maybe thats the way? but I know many will say even stereo subs can only work up to about 80hz, if you want any higher, you need woofers and meet the wideband up around 200 hz for better cohesion, which opens a whole other can of worms.

    I think a tweeter problem is related to its size: they are way too small and sound small no matter what. the transition is obvious between even a small woofer to a tweeter, let alone a 10'' with a 1.5'' tweeter.

    Anyone can hear the difference between a 10 inch tannoy to a 15 inch tannoy, the idea that the brain cannot discern the size of a sound source is absurd imo. For true reproduction of sound, a drum must sound as big a drum, a cymbal as big as a cymbal, voices similar to the mouth opening? maybe thats why those 4 inch sounds so goosebump inducing with voices?
    A wideband is effectively a small mid but a big tweeter. it changes the entire presentation of the treble vs a tweeter, making the wideband sound much more realistic (cause cymbals are much bigger then 1'') but at the detriment of anything under about 200hz or over 8khz.

    lol, speaker world is about what compromise works for our taste or needs i guess, and tbh I dont quite know yet which compromise I can settle with. Im pretty sure my relative understanding of all those things are poor, biased, and my experience even more lacking, etc.

    all I know is nothing but a 15 inch will make a drum sound real and have the same mind bending impact, nothing can do to vocals quite as realistic then smaller wideband. maybe matching a big ass woofer to a small wideband is the way? but then you need a super tweeter for that crystalline last octave. and how about the transition between the drivers? maybe the limitation of physics are at play here and not one system can engulf all our preference in one way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
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  8. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Completely agree with you!
    I would like to add that also, typical tweeter uses neodymium magnets (at best), and the top widebanders are field coils with voice coils wound on paper formers...that alone is another huge difference.

    I get what you say about the tweeter size, one of the ideas for my speakers is to have a 1.6-2 inch cone tweeter (again, built exactly the same as the midrange, same surround, cone, etc), but coupled to a waveguide of the same size as the midrange. The trick is to build the cone tweeter to have a bumped response in the low end once fitted to the waveguide, and use a cap of small value to not only flatten the response of the tweeter, but to achieve the desired roll off with the simplest possible crossover. This should give the best of both worlds: great off axis response and seamless sound. I could be wrong btw, but to me seems like a sensible solution and worth trying, I'm very curious to hear if this is the right way or still a compromise in coherence compared to the widebander alone.

    PS: you can't correct for beaming, but for frequency response. The better big widebanders, such as Supravox for example, have very clever, deep curvilinear cone profiles and phase plugs, they still beam but in the most gradual, even way possible for a cone of they size. Usually, if coupled to a supertweeter they're used in sloped baffles so you listen to them off axis, this lowers the sensitivity but let's you go away with some tricks, such as practically not needing baffle step compensation with the right baffle size/room wall proximity and matching the efficiency to the supertweeter, this is why this kind of speakers can get away with a "coil and a cap" and still have some decent mid bass response.
    And yes, 15 inch woofer is the way to go, nothing beats that effortless, detailed bass :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  9. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Awesome diy project man! These look really cool. It would be interesting to stick these in a cabinet with a nice woofer too.

    Cranked up air on a driver with detail sounds good if it doesn’t get weird in the mids and low treble. The big spike and no bass is going to unglue a lot of records but will make things pop out in a fun way. There are so many lame drivers out there and many expensive speakers use bunghole drivers and claim to
    overcome them with dsp and design tomfoolery. Never works.

    6-7” woofer to 1” soft dome is the sweet spot for two ways. Great woofers are needed imo. Otherwise, three way is the only way but most mid domes outside of ATC are overdamped and lame.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  10. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    ok, well i find myself a bit stupid right now
    my seas a26 were way too lowered. half of the woofer was "hidden" by my foam matress for the longest time. I never thought it was such a problem since it has a good 3 feet in front of the matress

    fast forward this week when ive installed the small wideband well over that matress and the claritiy Ive described.

    ive then decided to put the seas a26 exactly at the same spot as the wideband at the same weight (lower then the matress): the lack of clarity was still obvious.
    so yesterday ive decided on a whim to raise the seas a26 so that the matress is not in front of the woofer. now the woofer is right at the limit of the matress height so not blocked in any way.
    A26 mids clarity is back and its such a improvement!
    thats why I just kept on being bored with my speakers and going back to my headphones for any sort of critical listening. lol, ive been listening to me A26 the wrong way for over a year. now the A26 are amazing, i just keep on listening cause everything sounds so great.
    oh well, i had almost given up on speakers, and this was clearly because they were blocked by my bed
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020

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