Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    I have heard it before that DSPd monitors tend to sound worse than the default active versions. I wonder if there might be a DSP system that actually changes the sound for the better listening to something like Pink Floyd or Tool. (probably not..)
     
  2. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    You're kinda asking the wrong question. It's more a matter of deciding which gremlin to chase. If your room is wonky and you're striving for accuracy in the sense of frequency response at a specific listening position so you can mix and master tracks together etc, then DSP makes sense as it tackles the big cajoolies all at once with the speaker and room. The "resolution" doesn't matter as much because that's not the goal (sorta) and nothing is lost in the working realm, only at the reproduction end. Then on the other end you can go full analog purist, vinyl playback, external crossovers for bi/tri-amped playback, etc, and then you're left with the fussing with the physical components of the crossover, speakers, room, etc until you get the balance you want, with no digital chicanery to spoil the music.

    Somewhere in the middle you find your poison.
     
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  3. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    I tend to fall to the analogue purist group. When my musical taste matured to better recordings like Pink Floyd, Massive Attack and Tool the more I have become an analogue purist. I wouldn't mind good/great DSP system exposure. I bet there are certain great DSP systems out there. Maybe cinemas?
     
  4. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    My analogue with DSPs and certain mid-low level EQing would be the following (vs the purist approach - non DSP). Picture this: You need a kitchen knife for cooking. Would you take a fine Japanese/European pro kitchen knife with superb blade sharpness? It would be kind of short but will do the job. Or would you take a duller blade that is made of cheap generic steel and loses its edge quickly, you are unable to sharpen it properly because of nonoptimal material.On the upside, It has a longer blade that might come handy. Because it is made of cheap material, you can buy 10 of these in any length. I would still take the first option every time!

    Edited.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  5. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    The EQ or DSP sound you get is compensated and usually what the Physical System does not want to play in this location. Going the DSP/EQ way usually give weak performance ime, because on the contrary changing the physical things makes the sound actually worth it. I get that when your Goal is to get even FR then go ahead, but when the FR has these dull holes of nonresolution, weak dynamics and bad control then why bother at all? Speaking Hi-Fi systems. This is where I stand anyway.

    Point out a great DSP system and I will try to listen to it somewhere. Based on the experience of others I trust and my own, usually messing with the signal path this way gives quantity over quality.

    Why do HD650 and HD800 mods work so well? Because losing resonance (dynamat mod/HD800 resonator mod) in the cups actually changes the "equation" from the ground up, starting from the right place.

    (I have probably used up 1000-3000 hours of my time messing with speaker room acoustics using different Genelec models in different rooms/environments)

    I will try Sonarworks EQs with my HD650. Although I dislike digital EQs, I expect that they have gone a long way with their product.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  6. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    @Psalmanazar On the Genelec topic. I get where you are coming from with your statements about Genelecs, but they are still probably one of the best tools for Pros to use in different settings. Paying 500€ or 1000€ per pair more in a professional application is trivial when the system is expected to last around 10 years. They are made of cast? aluminium and are probably quite expensive to manufacture due to their unique egg shape. They are extremely tough (matte finish, but extremely hard surface) and can stand abuse because they do not have sharp corners anywhere. Other box shape monitors wear out faster and corners get busted.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  7. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I take the middling approach of not being afraid to use a bit of everything. All methods have merit and will move the sound in potentially positive ways, but as with all things the further you push each one the more strained it may become. The drivers and cabinet design can only take you so far before physics constrains you. Room placement will idealize your sound, but for only one spot. Room treatments can absorb/diffuse unwanted things, but too much and things become "dead" sounding, or become so large and cumbersome that you don't have much of a room left. DSP can smooth out the niggles and wiggles, but you can only push the math so far, and sometimes different equations produce different results even if technically the answers are the same.

    Again, pick your poison, or which combination of potions is most palatable.
     
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  8. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Trying Sonarworks 4 Systemwide trial with Wasapi shared on MusicBee with LSR305. Messing around with Bass Boost and Tilt. First impressions are that the Linear Phase setting is really clear sounding. It seems to deliver honest punch with Bass tilt. Ok, I am surprised.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Would one use an analog network to make a tweeter play sub-bass? Would one use damping materials or room placement to make a subwoofer play high treble? It's not necessarily that DSP sucks. It's probably more that it's misused.

    I digitally equalize my cheap active speakers / sub-woofer combo using a DSP gadget. And I love the results.

    The advantage of DSP (when used properly) is flexibility and in some ways, performance. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to make a sharp filter with the optimal phase properties in the analog domain. But not in the digital domain.

    On the other hand, when designing speaker cross-overs for example, having analog networks handling the frequency tailoring allows for less amplification and DAC interfaces vs. going all 2x8 DSP which may require bi, tri or even quad amplification per speaker.

    It's all trade-offs, and all approaches have their merits.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I'll add that IMO one should not limit oneself to purist points of view. Instead, one should try to learn all different aspects, and keep an open mind.

    I feel digital and analog solutions can be used together and applied where it most make sense. Being too purist about things can lead to using the wrong tool for the job.
     
  11. Priidik

    Priidik Friend

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    Be purist, after you have tried everything out yourself. Then no regrets, hahaha.
     
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  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL! There are always regrets. If one does something, one may regret doing it. But if one does not do something, one may regret not doing it. It's just the way life is I guess.

    Just to clarify. I do not feel analog > digital, or digital < analog, or even digital == analog. They're just different approaches. And in some situations digital may make more sense. In some others analog may make more sense. In some others either way works, and other factors may play in the decision of what to do. Including being "an analog purist". I just feel that being an "anlaog purist" or a "digital purist" may be a bit limiting. But that's just an opinion.
     
  13. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Haven't done any configuration yet. Just connected the sub to JBLs. Already feel the slam. :D

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Besides being "purist," I am keeping an open mind about the DSPs and EQs.
     
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  15. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Listening to some Noisa tracks, all I can say JBLs and this sub is a killer combo. No compromise in slam and quantity (mono sub though). The sub produces quality bass.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  16. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Just to let you guys know, I used the trial Sonarworks. I will try the Sonarworks Reference 4 with the mic [the way It is supposed to be used] in the coming months.
     
  17. Armaegis

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    So... I actually wound up getting them.

    Dual dual-monitor arms, so I've got the monitors next to the monitors. All the lovely adjustable-ness that I could ever want (including tucking them away behind if needed). My standing desk is also on wheels. Weird wonky room node? Woodstove and/or piano that I can't move? Roll over two feet, problem solved! (which reminds me, I need to get a power bar with longer cord)

    Localization is actually much better now that I've got them level and pointing at my ears. I've got it set on "theatre" mode, because I just want oomph and who cares about the accuracy, we're already cheating physics with something this small. All things considered, it's still remarkably clean down there. The switch for 1/4 vs 1/2 vs full space is much more subtle than anticipated, but it does even out the bottom end when I roll closer to a wall. Bluetooth is ok, wired seems marginally better (have not tried with a dedicated fancy dac, that would be silly). There's inherent background noise from the built-in amp, it's kinda buzzy, but then again my ticking clock on the wall is literally a magnitude louder than the buzzing so I'm just picking nits.

    So far on day one I'm feeling quite pleased with the setup. Does it measure up to my other toys? Nope. Is it respectable sound that lets me enjoy music without getting all nervosa about every bit in the signal path? Yep. Most importantly, it also fits my particular want/need to have something mountable on my semi-movable desk.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  18. Kamran

    Kamran Rando

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    Hi friends
    Does anyone have Behringer monitor speakers schematic used tda7294 thanks.
     
  19. limesoft

    limesoft Acquaintance

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    Unless your room is super treated or very large so you can place the monitors free standing away from walls and surfaces, quite high up if you dont have carpeted floors, I wouldn't consider anything but dsp corrected speakers.
    Genelec 8340 or 8330 (you can add the dsp sub later on). Theyll give you correct sound, they're vibey and enjoyable in general.. they are not like free standing ATCs in optimal rooms, but give you 70-80 percent of that without the effort
     
  20. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    I took a chance on a pair of Kali Audio LP-6 speakers. They're making the rounds among the studio community as the best bang for the buck FOTM monitors. I also grabbed IsoAcoustics stands finally after using yoga blocks for a couple of years.

    They are not perfect, but they are multiple tiers better than my PreSonus Eris E4.5 monitors that they replace.

    My biggest complaint so far is that I can hear just a bit of hiss out of the right tweeter even from 3 feet away. It's very quiet and I can only hear it because I have super quiet fans in my PC.

    The bass is about what you'd expect from a 6.5" woofer. It's adequate for most songs, but I need my subwoofer for electronic or hip hop.

    There are enough dip switches on the back that it's not difficult to dial them in.

    I was hoping to get away with using my Steinberg UR28M for them, but the RME ADI-2 DAC is notably superior in every way with them. With the PreSonus, I couldn't really tell the difference.
     

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