The DAC Advice Thread

Hi, My only R2R DAC experience was a long while ago with a unit that's out of production, I believe a BB chip. I heard obvious differences (mostly soundstage width, depth and separation) but it was against a cheap DVD player. Since then I only used D/S converters but that experience has stayed in the back of my mind. I currently own my first speakers that I consider truly transparent and I'm curious to dip my toes into R2R territory. I don't want to jump to an expensive unit because to quote an acquaintance "quality audio is like gambling, be prepared to lose money" but I want something that can convince me. I'm looking at used and easily available in Europe. Advice, please?

 

The Soekris 1221 is the least expensive bona fide R2R that I'm aware of. But I bet you could get one of the higher-end ones second hand for not much more, and then if you don't like it, sell it.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. What about older used DACs based on now out of production chips? I was thinking that would be the best price/performance ratio but there are so many it's hard to choose.

 

There are cheaper "R2R" DACs so I'm curious about the "bona fide" qualifier.

(my 1221 sounds great! ;-) )

 

This is a good option. It's also a good idea to do this several times to get an idea of the general sound. Buy used and sell for close to what you bought it for and you get a lot of information for essentially the price of shipping.

Buying gear new should be a last resort. And get to know how much $$ gear goes for before buying so you can make sure you won't lose much when passing it along to the next guy.

 

Thanks for the reply purr1n. Thing is I don't remember ever noticing a difference in DAC sound since then but all I've heard comparatively were D/S. Which matches your comment about all D/S souding the same. (Lesser speakers could explain it also.) On the other hand the difference I heard then on some entry level Dynaudios was so striking that it almost makes me think something was really off. This is OCD-stimulating, I need to know. If you were to recommend the cheapest, easily available R2R DAC, NOS or OS, old or new, that would make one go "I was missing so much all this time", what would it be?

 

I think the Holo Cyan 2 will fit in as one of the more affordable R2R NOS/OS DAC that will give you a good taste of what a decent R2R DAC can do, and offer the flexibility to work in conjunction nicely with HQplayer upsampling in PCM or DSD

 

I've got much less experience with DACs than most here but the Modi Multibit is a profoundly different sound from a lot of modern D/S DACs, though it can be a bit too aggressive-sounding with the wrong gear. The way it does staging is decidedly not-D/S.

FWIW some D/S DACs can sound pretty standout too like the iFi Burr-Brown chips. Very not neutral with deliberate flavour, but can be very fun.

 

This can be a good option, but older DACs may need some work to sound their best, mainly a recapping. I personally bought an EAD DSP-7000 that was recently recapped, and liked it so much I bought a second, which is in desperate need of a recapping. So if you go the vintage route - and I would recommend the EAD Series III if you do - just know that one R2R DAC will sound different not just from other brands, but potentially even the same models in various states of maintenance.

In short - go listen to a few different ones to find what you like best, old and new.

Edit: I forgot to mention, the recapped one has an overheating problem. I just pop the lid off when I listen, but it needs a better long term solution.

 

I think what Purr1n is saying here is that the R2R may not necessarily be better than what you are already enjoying with DS, especially when you are are going for the cheapest just to try out. R2R may present your music differently, but at the lower end a $300 R2R might not change your mind much compared to a $3000 DS. There are good implementations, and there are bad implementations, for both R2R and DS.

Don't just try something because it's cheap. It's like trying cheapo wine to see if you want to be a sommelier. Go read through the DAC review threads. You'll find reviews of both good and not so good R2R. There are maybe a handful of DS DAC reviews too, but here these tend to be overachievers at their respective brackets. I would take a Modius E or a Matrix X-Sabre Pro over a badly implemented R2R at their respective price points.

 

Yeah, definitely not making it easier. I currently use an Auralic Vega (first gen) and I would like to move to be worthwhile. To add to that, my amp doesn't have volume control and if the DAC doesn't either I'll need a pre.

 

I actually have been running my cyan 2 directly to my power amp for a while and I preferred it over using my Schiit Freya + or my sim audio 350p neo preamp (now sold) in the chain. That was before I got my benchmark LA4…

Simply use hqplayer for digital volume and control with my cell phone. Nice thing about hqplayer volume control is first of all you can set upper and lower limit so you won’t go accidentally to insane level and blow your tweeters. And the volume control is insanely accurate with 0.1 db increments. Some folks even get programmable remote to connect to hqplayer client app to control simple play/pause/skip and volume control… so unless you have multiple sources, you really don’t need a preamp

 

I'd put the Gustard R26 forward as a good Chinese-made R2R DAC. I personally think it's equivalent to my Yggdrasil A2 or Matrix X-Sabre Pro.

My understanding of the Cyan 2 is that it's really meant to be paired with HQPlayer, and the NOS might sound a bit odd without the external upsampling. But I've not heard it, and perhaps I've misread, having not looked into it too deeply.

 

I was not a fan of the Cyan 2 unless it was used in a very certain way. Fed by the Red via I2S, with DSD256 from HQPlayer. Sounded pretty damn good when set up like that though!

On its own, or outside of this specific way of using it, it just sounded blunted and kinda boring.

 

Huh, I wasn't aware there's an Europe Schiit store, nice.

I found an (obviously) used Theta DS Pro Gen III locally, anyone familiar with it?

 

There are levels to this.
A 300 € device is incompareble to 3k device and that is incomparable to 30 k device.
You will not get good understanding of what very capable multibit dac could do by testing a 1000 € unit. I will catch hate by saying you can do so with SD.
If I would point out a commonality it is that well made multibit dacs regardless of price range have a few specific sound traits that are fairly easy to catch for those who are sensitive to it. Note weight, sounstage uniformity, better perceived timbral graduations.
I am among the few who'd take 500 € R2R dac over any 2k SD dac. Or a great 3 k multibit dac over any SD dac period (I have tried a few in 20 to 50k range).

Great point that I would elaborate further.
With few exceptions well made SD dacs regardless of price sound more or less neutral, plain, resolving and their soundstaging character is similar. Differences are mostly in the range in which the qualities go and how well the nasties are managed. The major contributor to their character is analog output electronics.

Multibit dacs range from very warm lush (Sonic Frontiers, Metronome or other things with tube output and vintage) to nutral lean (Soekris). Their character depends heavily on architecture, filtering and output electronics. Multibit dacs are harder to get wrong and also harder to get right. When they are truly right they are in category of their own.