The DAC Advice Thread

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by señorhifi, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. nylac

    nylac New

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    Hi, My only R2R DAC experience was a long while ago with a unit that's out of production, I believe a BB chip. I heard obvious differences (mostly soundstage width, depth and separation) but it was against a cheap DVD player. Since then I only used D/S converters but that experience has stayed in the back of my mind. I currently own my first speakers that I consider truly transparent and I'm curious to dip my toes into R2R territory. I don't want to jump to an expensive unit because to quote an acquaintance "quality audio is like gambling, be prepared to lose money" but I want something that can convince me. I'm looking at used and easily available in Europe. Advice, please?
     
  2. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    The Soekris 1221 is the least expensive bona fide R2R that I'm aware of. But I bet you could get one of the higher-end ones second hand for not much more, and then if you don't like it, sell it.
     
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  3. nylac

    nylac New

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    Thanks for the recommendation. What about older used DACs based on now out of production chips? I was thinking that would be the best price/performance ratio but there are so many it's hard to choose.
     
  4. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

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    There are cheaper "R2R" DACs so I'm curious about the "bona fide" qualifier.

    (my 1221 sounds great! ;-) )
     
  5. Erroneous

    Erroneous Friend

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    This is a good option. It's also a good idea to do this several times to get an idea of the general sound. Buy used and sell for close to what you bought it for and you get a lot of information for essentially the price of shipping.

    Buying gear new should be a last resort. And get to know how much $$ gear goes for before buying so you can make sure you won't lose much when passing it along to the next guy.
     
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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The qualifier is that there are different interpretations of R2R sound.
    • There's a vintage R2R. Not necessarily resolving, although some can be. Usually organic, varying levels of syrup. TDA1541, PCM1704 (boring), PCM63, UltraAnalog (good), and new with with similar interpretations (Denafrips - kinda sucks, and Metrum - overpriced). I have an old Sonic Frontiers SFD-1 (which its current configuration is a bit more modern and less vintage). The Abbas stuff takes this vintage sound to the extreme.
    • The modern R2R sound. Holo Audio Spring 3 and May, Schiit Yggdrasil MIB / MMB2, Rockna Wavedream, Soekris 2541 etc.
    Then there is NOS, which affects staging, and also tone (depends upon implementation), and allows more flexibility with using your own OS filters in software via HQPlayer.

    The thing with R2R is that you will have a wider universe of different presentations. The modern delta sigma seems dominated by ESS and to a lesser extent AKM (only because their factory burned down), which more or less sound the same. Although part of this is because China manufacturers just copy data sheets and use the best measuring opamps like OPA1612 so they can top the leaderboard at ASR. It's kind of like obsessive try-hard Chinese kids in high-school or university who try to top the test boards.
     
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  7. nylac

    nylac New

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    Thanks for the reply purr1n. Thing is I don't remember ever noticing a difference in DAC sound since then but all I've heard comparatively were D/S. Which matches your comment about all D/S souding the same. (Lesser speakers could explain it also.) On the other hand the difference I heard then on some entry level Dynaudios was so striking that it almost makes me think something was really off. This is OCD-stimulating, I need to know. If you were to recommend the cheapest, easily available R2R DAC, NOS or OS, old or new, that would make one go "I was missing so much all this time", what would it be?
     
  8. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

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    I think the Holo Cyan 2 will fit in as one of the more affordable R2R NOS/OS DAC that will give you a good taste of what a decent R2R DAC can do, and offer the flexibility to work in conjunction nicely with HQplayer upsampling in PCM or DSD
     
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  9. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    I've got much less experience with DACs than most here but the Modi Multibit is a profoundly different sound from a lot of modern D/S DACs, though it can be a bit too aggressive-sounding with the wrong gear. The way it does staging is decidedly not-D/S.

    FWIW some D/S DACs can sound pretty standout too like the iFi Burr-Brown chips. Very not neutral with deliberate flavour, but can be very fun.
     
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  10. gsanger

    gsanger Almost "Made"

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    This can be a good option, but older DACs may need some work to sound their best, mainly a recapping. I personally bought an EAD DSP-7000 that was recently recapped, and liked it so much I bought a second, which is in desperate need of a recapping. So if you go the vintage route - and I would recommend the EAD Series III if you do - just know that one R2R DAC will sound different not just from other brands, but potentially even the same models in various states of maintenance.

    In short - go listen to a few different ones to find what you like best, old and new.

    Edit: I forgot to mention, the recapped one has an overheating problem. I just pop the lid off when I listen, but it needs a better long term solution.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 2, 2024
  11. joch

    joch Friend

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    I think what Purr1n is saying here is that the R2R may not necessarily be better than what you are already enjoying with DS, especially when you are are going for the cheapest just to try out. R2R may present your music differently, but at the lower end a $300 R2R might not change your mind much compared to a $3000 DS. There are good implementations, and there are bad implementations, for both R2R and DS.

    Don't just try something because it's cheap. It's like trying cheapo wine to see if you want to be a sommelier. Go read through the DAC review threads. You'll find reviews of both good and not so good R2R. There are maybe a handful of DS DAC reviews too, but here these tend to be overachievers at their respective brackets. I would take a Modius E or a Matrix X-Sabre Pro over a badly implemented R2R at their respective price points.
     
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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    And there is delta-sigma stuff like the Burl B2 or Dangerous Music Convert-2 which could just as easily be thought of as belonging to the family of R2R DACs (if one never knew what was inside).

    I know, I'm not making it easy.

    I think Holo Cyan or Soekris 2451 would be good bets around same price point seeing that you are in the EU. Like very good bets.
    • Metrum/Sonnet could be interesting, but tends to be poor value / too colored or off-the-wall as a starter R2R. A used Amethyst or Onyx should be considered for a solid NOS R2R DAC.
    • Avoid China R2R stuff. Some of it may be good, but most of it is bad. Bad to the point where a distributor once recalled a loaner unit and never spoke to us again after the first two reviewers on the panel did not give it glowing praise. (It never made it to me). In many instances, I have found China R2R DACs that received glowing praise on other sites to more or less sound like shit when I finally got to audition it.
    Hesitate to recommend anything too vintagey or used because condition unknown is not good.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
  13. nylac

    nylac New

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    Yeah, definitely not making it easier. I currently use an Auralic Vega (first gen) and I would like to move to be worthwhile. To add to that, my amp doesn't have volume control and if the DAC doesn't either I'll need a pre.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2024
  14. dericchan1

    dericchan1 Facebook Friend

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    I actually have been running my cyan 2 directly to my power amp for a while and I preferred it over using my Schiit Freya + or my sim audio 350p neo preamp (now sold) in the chain. That was before I got my benchmark LA4…

    Simply use hqplayer for digital volume and control with my cell phone. Nice thing about hqplayer volume control is first of all you can set upper and lower limit so you won’t go accidentally to insane level and blow your tweeters. And the volume control is insanely accurate with 0.1 db increments. Some folks even get programmable remote to connect to hqplayer client app to control simple play/pause/skip and volume control… so unless you have multiple sources, you really don’t need a preamp
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The Vega is still a really nice DAC. TBH sub $2.5k, I don't think there's an R2R DAC that will out resolve the Vega. You will get a different tone though.

    Try the MMB2 (use in NOS mode) to get a taste for **cheap**: https://www.schiit-europe.com/product/modi-multibit/
     
  16. wbass

    wbass Friend

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    I'd put the Gustard R26 forward as a good Chinese-made R2R DAC. I personally think it's equivalent to my Yggdrasil A2 or Matrix X-Sabre Pro.

    My understanding of the Cyan 2 is that it's really meant to be paired with HQPlayer, and the NOS might sound a bit odd without the external upsampling. But I've not heard it, and perhaps I've misread, having not looked into it too deeply.
     
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  17. Erroneous

    Erroneous Friend

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    I was not a fan of the Cyan 2 unless it was used in a very certain way. Fed by the Red via I2S, with DSD256 from HQPlayer. Sounded pretty damn good when set up like that though!

    On its own, or outside of this specific way of using it, it just sounded blunted and kinda boring.
     
  18. nylac

    nylac New

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    Huh, I wasn't aware there's an Europe Schiit store, nice.

    I found an (obviously) used Theta DS Pro Gen III locally, anyone familiar with it?
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yeah, the told Theta is still really good. I believe a few here may still own some vintage Theta DACs. It was a pretty crazy design back in the day with custom DSP. The only model I would avoid is the Gen V where the output stage would get really hot and die after so many decades.
     
  20. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    There are levels to this.
    A 300 € device is incompareble to 3k device and that is incomparable to 30 k device.
    You will not get good understanding of what very capable multibit dac could do by testing a 1000 € unit. I will catch hate by saying you can do so with SD.
    If I would point out a commonality it is that well made multibit dacs regardless of price range have a few specific sound traits that are fairly easy to catch for those who are sensitive to it. Note weight, sounstage uniformity, better perceived timbral graduations.
    I am among the few who'd take 500 € R2R dac over any 2k SD dac. Or a great 3 k multibit dac over any SD dac period (I have tried a few in 20 to 50k range).

    Great point that I would elaborate further.
    With few exceptions well made SD dacs regardless of price sound more or less neutral, plain, resolving and their soundstaging character is similar. Differences are mostly in the range in which the qualities go and how well the nasties are managed. The major contributor to their character is analog output electronics.

    Multibit dacs range from very warm lush (Sonic Frontiers, Metronome or other things with tube output and vintage) to nutral lean (Soekris). Their character depends heavily on architecture, filtering and output electronics. Multibit dacs are harder to get wrong and also harder to get right. When they are truly right they are in category of their own.
     
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