The Two Channel Advice Thread

Well ackchyually...
https://www.thx.com/questions/what-is-the-reference-level/


I'd say coming up just 3dB short is bloody close enough

 

@fraggler, I think you've heard my home theater system. I use pre-outs from a Denon x4700 AVR and older Emotiva Xpa amps to power the speakers.

Home theater is a lot more forgiving than music when it comes to amplifiers, it likes instantaneous power more than finesse. I used to use the internal Denon amps and they sounded OK, I think the Emotivas or Monoliths would work great for you.

Do note the Monoliths get HOT, you'll want open racks or cooling for either one.

 

Hi everyone. I am having a problem with my turntable setup where I hear a persistent buzzing noise after turning on my amplifier and phono pre. I swapped out tubes and the issue is still present. I checked online for additional information and it appears like I have a ground loop which is weird as my setup hasn't changed at all. Have you all experienced this type of issue happening over time? Would I need to purchase a ground loop eliminator for each device?
I have an eddie current classic phono fed into an integrated amplifier. Both devices are connected to the same power strip.

 

have you tried plugging them into another separate outlet that is not plugged into the outlet of the power strip
basically separate the phono stage from the integrated .

 

I managed to eliminate hum from mine by adding ferrite beads to the cables coming into the phono

 

So, I'm looking to build a new system in a new room as either an upgrade to my Klipsch Forte III / Enleum Amp-23R set-up or as something nicely different. Here's what I'm considering, below. Some of these are right in my budget, some above, and I always look to buy used if/when I can. Any comments or recommendations on other speakers to hear totally welcomed.

(I'm guessing some would just say, "Get the Forte IV or Cornwall IV." But I'm not interested in an incremental upgrade to what I already have and may well keep the Forte III for a second system, and I think the Cornwalls are too big for the room, which is 13' x 17'. I'll likely put the system on the short wall. Front-ported will be a big plus, as I won't have a ton of space to pull the speakers into the room. Bookshelves and mini-monitors don't really interest me--I need a little bass reach--but I am curious about larger BBC-style stand mounts, as below. For now I'm not interested in incorporating a subwoofer.)

(I might keep the Enleum amp for speaker duties or move to something like a Luxman 509 or 590, beefy, class-A, medium-powered integrateds.)

Thanks for any thoughts!

----Various Tannoy, vintage or Legacy. (I auditioned a pair of Tannoy Arden recently and really liked what the concentric drivers did for timing and coherency. There seem to be so many Tannoy models out there--Arden, Cheviot, Westminster, Sterling, HPD, and so on--that my head starts to spin. Ultimately, I think the Arden will be too big for my room, so I might look into Cheviot size.)

--Fyne Vintage Classic VIII or X (I'm also interested in the notion that Fyne is updating the old Tannoy designs with more modern drivers and cabinets.)

--Fyne 502SP (concentric driver with an additional woofer, in a more modern tower shape)

--Fyne 702 (ditto but higher in their range.)

--Harbeth SHL5+ XD (I never really connected with Harbeth before, but a recent demo really impressed.)

--Harbeth 30, 40, compact 7.... Haven't quite dialed in which would work in my room. 40's probably too big. 30's too small?

--other larger BBC-style monitors (Graham/Chartwell, Stirling, Spendor. Spendor Classic 100's look good, for example.)

--I was hot on a pair of Quad 57s for a while, but I think I might have to pull them too far into the room, and since this is the main living room, that might not work too well.


Speaker hunting is fun. Cheers!

 

Totally random suggestion: Something from Geithain...
https://www.me-geithain.de/en/passiv-lautsprecher.html

They've got coaxial drivers, are usually front or bottom ported, and depending on the model may have "cardioid radiation characteristic in bass range" which reduces room modes (usually this is the active models) and gives you more flexibility with placement.

 

I’ve heard the spendor 1/2 and a few smaller BBCs. I’d take a good Klipsch chain any day over those. The effortlessness of an high efficiency speaker is just hard to beat. Also if I’m doing klipsh, I’d be running em from a DHT amp. A couple of my friends liked a specific model from Fyne. A friend heard a Tannoy Stirling and felt that it had potential. A couple of my friends seem to like the Revival Atalante 5. The other 3 options that come to mind are Zu, Tekton, Troels Gravesen. Advantechs A50 supposedly is a beast of a speaker, when it comes to resolve and realism.

 

Some thoughts:

• I really liked what I heard from the Quad ESL 57. I'd still take my OBs any day, but funnily enough the ESL57 was one of the better electrostats I heard.
• I didn't like the early Fyne models, but I thought the recent models were fine. Still not my cup of tea, still too colored / not transparent enough for me.
• Efficient doesn't always mean responsive/dynamic. Inefficient doesn't always mean the opposite.
• I haven't heard Troels' speakers, but my feeling (based on components and drivers) tells me the A50 would be quite hard to beat for a traditional multi way speaker.
• Zu would not be my choice. No idea about Tekton.

I'd like to know more about your preferences. You can get bass reach and heft out of stand mounts like I did with Hathor. And don't dismiss smaller speakers due to their efficiency.

Spoiler: The part where I shill my speakers.

For example even my dad remarked how Hathor has this kind of transient response, bite or energy to it that it kind of made him a little sad about the performance of his Canton Reference 3K, which makes transients blur together somewhat.

 

Low-eff don’t seem to struggle with being dynamic, albeit I find them to do dynamics in a different manner. I’ll save that debate for another day.

As for the term ‘responsive’, the way I see it, it may partly correspond to the ‘effortlessness’ I am referring to, but allow me to run with ‘effortlessness’ for now. What I mean by it is, it’s as if the sound is strained relative to the high-eff counter parts, and sometimes cranking up the loudness helps, but not always.

Apart from this effortlessness they seem to lack in 2 other critical areas for me.

- Genesis of a note - Think of it as the part, first octave or half of it, right before the attack or the crescendo. Low-eff speakers seem to struggle to reproduce this part of the note. Especially noticeable on voices, wind instruments and bowed strings.

- Inner detail and decay - Modern low-eff seem to be quite good at modern resolution and outer detail. But seem to be poor to average at reproducing inner detail and decay of a note.0

Adding these up, I want to say that they seem to struggle with being responsive to low level signals. But that theory doesn’t sit well because they do seem to do outer micro detail quite well. Which is why I prefer to use the term ‘effortlessness’.

I have also found that I am more sensitive to these 3 flaws of low-eff than some of my friends. But 2 of my friends, who got exposed to high-eff recently started noticing these flaws of low-eff and both ended by buying a pair of Forte4.

 

Thanks for the suggestions, y'all. Geithain look very interesting, but as best I can tell only have dealers in Austria and Germany. There are a bunch of German speakers I'm curious about, especially Dynamikks, but many are harder to come by in the UK (and US).

Zu and Tekton I'm curious about, but probably less likely to pursue. Also a bit trickier to hear in the UK.

Also curious about the Troels stuff, but can you get them pre-made, or are they kit only? Are there dealers or workshops where you can hear them? Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to DIY anything.

Quad would be a lot of fun--and I might still go that direction--but given space constraints I'll likely need something that can go close to the back wall, and that's where the likes of Tannoy and Fyne seem to shine. Probably both do have some coloration, but I've been really surprised by just how engaging these "monkey coffin"/concentric driver designs can be. And Fyne seems to be a modernized take on same. I'll also say that the wider, shallower speaker cabinet is more decor friendly, more furniture-like, to my eyes, than tower floorstanders. I'm going to hear the Vintage Classic VIII in a couple weeks and will report back.

Also, I still like my Klipsch Forte III a lot. They'll likely stay and go to another system. I'm a big fan of high-efficiency, but I don't quite see the point in replicating what I already have. I have the feeling it's either going to come down to Tannoy/Fyne or a larger BBC-style monitor--I really was very impressed by the Harbeth SHL5+ XD--in part b/c both seem to do fine without needing to be pulled fairly far into the room.

I don't mind bookshelves, own a pair of KEL LS50, and have been impressed by the likes of Dynaudio Special 40. But in my experience, they want to be pulled way out into the room. And I've never quite heard them do upright bass in a way that convinces me. That said, I've got the likes of TAD ME-1 (would have to be a very good used deal) on my "to-hear" list.

But, really, the fun of the auditioning process to me is being surprised. So I'm open to anything, so long as it will work in my room.

 

@EagleWings
I definitely get what you mean. And for the vast majority of speakers I think the same thing.

However let's just say I've heard outliers in both camps. There are plenty of larger speakers with 95dB sensitivities which just don't sound very effortless. Heck, boring even.
And then there are maybe a handful of speakers that do quite well in sounding effortless with an efficiency/sensitivity in the 85 to 90dB range.
Many of the TOTL audiophile speakers costing hundreds of thousands fall into this efficiency range. And some have that sound.

For a while I thought it would be a matter of distortion. It seems logical: larger, more efficient drivers don't have to move as much and as a result don't distort as much.
However what I heard from the 8" Purifi just didn't seem very responsive. Effortless, maybe. But in this case definitely a low efficiency sound.
Another example and I know @Priidik would disagree, but I think the same goes for the Accuton woofers, for example. Paper is just lighter.

So which low efficiency speakers had that effortless sound with good microdynamics? Honestly, I'm struggling to think of any. Widebanders I think are generally better in this regard, but not without a bass driver and even so many of them are a slow sounding mess (Fostex, Markaudio, etc).

• Even Hathor isn't perfect in this regard and it will depend a lot on the amplifier. But I think it does well.
• A speaker based on the ScanSpeak 12MU drivers did almost as well.
• The smaller SB Acoustic mids should be as good.
• The OOP small Vifa NE series mids should be similarly good. I bought the last two available ones.

@wbass
Those TAD bookshelf speakers won't convince you, I can tell you that
Dynaudio Special Forty or even the new TOTL stand mounts don't sound like larger or higher efficiency speakers. I think a lot gets lost in the crossover, too.

I would maybe give the Source Point 888 a shot. Or the Source Point 10. Not the last word in resolution, but quite fun. And the price is not that bad for what you're getting.

I'm a fan of those huge Geithains with 16" cardioid bass and coaxial mid/treble. I might prefer them to the equivalent ATC model. But their more sensibly priced speakers? I'm not too sure.

 

To each his own--I heard a pair of TAD at Axpona a couple years back, and they were great. Andrew Jones design, nicely built, though no doubt the mark-up is extreme.

Yes, the SourcePoint... Another AJ design and definitely on my radar, and thanks for the reminder. They are a little harder to come by in the UK, but the discounts at Music Direct have been tempting. I'm also curious about the new floorstanders.

As far as high vs low efficiency, I'm personally agnostic. And amplification matters a lot, too. I'm sort of in the camp of no one speaker can do everything well, so get two pairs that are contrasting/complimentary, if you have the space, and luckily I will have two rooms for two systems.

 

fwiw- I have owned the Tannoy Cheviot and had the Forte III for an extended time. I would not say the Cheviot is better than the Klipsch. Over time, though, I felt the Klipsch had something just a tad peakey in the upper mids and a touch of some misplaced bass bloat.

Today, I use a pair of JBL Studio 560s and a small sub (good value and a few faults) and feel it is more pleasing than either of the above. They are not super efficient but do have better than ave. dynamics.


I suppose if I were auditioning I might look at a few speakers that I found appealing when shopping a few years ago. Ones that caught my ear were Sonus Faber and some of the higher end Dalis. I would like to hear some of the more recent JBL models.

Good luck with the hunt, it can be fun!

fyi, pretty much all speakers can go close to a wall (e-stats, planar and bipolars excepted) and ports in the back need a mere 4-6 inches and work fine. What can be more problematic is what is in between the speakers when placed that way.

 

if the cardioid bass thing intrigues you, a few other brands well known for it are the Kii Three and Dutch + Dutch.
Both should have dealers in the UK.

 

Yeah, maybe not expecting Tannoy or Fyne to be markedly better than the Forte III, just different. Though there are a lot of surprisingly high-end systems that use vintage Tannoy. Plenty out there on various forums about which kinds of vintage drivers to get and boutique companies building better cabinets. But I think I'll go for something more mainstream in the end.

Do you mean JBL Studio 570? 560 seems to be a sub. I've checked out one or two of the Synthesis models at dealers. Nice but seemed kinda forward. I dunno. I'm very curious, but higher-end JBL is kinda hard to come by.

I've also heard higher-end stuff by Magico and Wilson--very highly braced cabinets, many drivers, complex crossovers--and they left me... kind of underwhelmed. Ditto Dynaudio Confidence 60 (or 50). I just didn't connect. Could've been the price tag and knowing I'd never be able to go there. Could be a strong preference for a certain liveliness over a certain smoothness. Hard to say really, but I somewhat fail to see the point of the mega-buck speakers, unless you have a huge room or really, really need one speaker to cover all of the octaves. Also, it seems that the humble ingredients that go into speakers--can drivers and cabinets really be *that* expensive?--don't really need to add up to $$$?

I dunno. You see Nelson Pass using DIY Tannoy and Chesky or whoever using vintage Quad, and you have to wonder. Never mind all of the cool Japanese systems built around old Altec and JBL.

Another company I want to hear again: Devore.

 

Obviously I cannot remember model numbers too well,. yes, I meant Studio 570.

And I am with you, over the years I have attended about 15 RMAF shows here in Denver. Wilson and Magico demos left me with "are you kidding, they are how much?" Yet, TAD was impressive. Devore also made a favorable impression over the years. Voxativ is the speaker brand that impressed me the most at the shows. Not sure of the model (s) but expensive and with dialed in subs.

 

I'm not sure you'll like Devore with that preference. I prefer the O/96 by a long shot over the rest since it is the most lively speaker I've heard in their lineup but I wouldn't say it's a particularly dynamic speaker.

 

Best thing I've heard at a show was Avantgarde Trio with the full subwoofer stack. Super detailed with a tactility unmatched by anything else I've encountered. This was Axpona 2022. I recall also liking Borresen (sp) and Volti and TAD.

 

Yeah, I hear you. I heard 0/96 at a dealer, and it was sleepy and dark with Shindo electronics but much better with Nagra. "Refined" was the word that came to mind. I'd like to hear them again.

They seem to work okay in corners? That's what I'm dealing with here--needing to find speakers that will work in alcoves on either side of a fireplace without becoming boomy/muddy.

Btw, how do you like your Lux 509?