Life after Yggdrasil: Watering the Ash

If there is such a thing, I've never seen nor heard it.

Sorry to disappoint!

Ironically Gungnir MB is something I only had relatively fleetingly. I bought one for my "day job" office rig in April of 2017 and had sold it by October. Not because there was anything wrong with it - my situation just meant I wound up with a spare Yggdrasil that got moved to the office instead of the Gungnir Multibit.

 

Responding to my own post.

Looks like the Yaggys are flowing again; I just received a tracking number. No idea if this will speed up the upgrade pipeline.

 

No idea how I managed to miss this thread for a long time... Just wanted to say thank you, this is an awesome resource!

What I find fascinating reading between the lines here is that it seems state of the art sound quality to the point where they are difficult to distinguish from each other can be achieved through polar opposite design philosophies.

Just like Mike has an intense dislike for delta-sigma* and prefers the least amount of guesswork in his DAC designs, Rob holds a strong dislike for R2R designs and uses a ton of FPGA power for a level of signal reconstruction through upsampling/tons on taps.

* When it comes to high end designs, Schiit of course also makes lot of cheap DS stuff too.

 

It will be a week(ish) in 3 more hours ...

Waiting patiently

 

I expect I'll get to posting the listening details later today (if not, then it'll be tomorrow).

But the short version is the production boards sound fundamentally the same as what I'd heard before. Which is to say they're a significant (immediately discernible) improvement over the original Yggdrasil. Significant enough that even in blind A/B testing it was easy to tell the two units apart and very evident, even, as to which was the better sounding.

As an Yggdrasil owner, I'd be doing the upgrade immediately.

Of course, I have already put my money where my mouth is on that front.

--

Going further ...

If I had started this thread using the latest Analog 2 version of Yggdrasil, then the results would be quite different. Notably the Holo Audio Spring DAC L3/KTE, Metrum Pavane, and the PS Audio DirectStream would not have received "=" standing. Though the presentation of the first two units there is different enough that they would still be interesting units and might well still play more strongly to some people's preferences. Even DAVE and the Linn Klimax (Katalyst) units would almost certainly have missed out there.

Time changes (almost) all things, of course, and since the original comparisons were done the PS Audio DirectStream has had two major firmware* updates, there have multiple updates to the Linn units and the Pavane has also been significantly updated. I've heard those updates, and they're quite definite improvements in their own right, however I've not had a chance to do back-to-back comparisons with them and the Analog 2 updated Yggdrasil**.

--

If I was on the fence about buying an Yggdrasil, the latest updates would definitely push me to do it. I can't think of a better, more musically involving, way to spend $2,399. And the $550 upgrade charge for existing owners is a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

--

*The firmware updates for these units re-program the unit's respective FPGAs which are used for multiple purposes (filtering, oversampling, room correction etc.). This is a powerful feature and both companies make very good use of it. As a bonus, these are easily user-installable updates and are available free.

**That'll happen fairly quickly with the Linn DS, but it's hard to say if I'll be able to get enough time with the PS Audio or Metrum units in my own system any time soon.

 

I always found Chord's combination of products a bit odd. It seems like it would make the most sense to combine the mscaler upscaler with the Dave DAC into one unit. Instead, they combine the mscaler with a cd transport (which need to be upsampled by a rate of 16x), and they combine the Dave DAC with a headphone amp.

Why not just put the mscaler + Dave DAC into one box?

 

Probably just designed the Dave first then the tech for the Blu after? That’s my guess.

 

According to What HiFi (https://www.whathifi.com/chord/blu-mkii/review):

 

Is that a chord dave/blu to the right or the knob to electrocute the giant squid ;D

 

Beyond the engineering and timing realities of putting the M-Scaler in DAVE's box, the issues of "addressable market" and "buyer psychology" shouldn't be downplayed.

In general, the addressable market is larger for a net-common-end-result if you can get to it in stages. In other words, you'll generally sell more units when it's two $13,000 purchases than when it's one $26,000 purchase. Both for the combined pair of products, and for those that can use them independently and otherwise wouldn't have bought anything. That you can step into the end-solution in smaller chunks is huge from a psychological perspective (remember that simply reducing a price from $13,000 to $12,999 has a similar effect).

With the CD-transport, you'd have a tough sell putting that ugly (yes, I get that aesthetics are at least as subjective as audio preferences) box out and asking thousands for it without some unique selling point. And "it matches my other Choral series products" probably isn't sufficient there, hence the M-Scaler provides that ... significant differentiation from any other CD-transport/player.

The M-Scaler also has potential beyond DAVE. It currently works with both the Hugo 2 and the Qutest.

Various posts from Rob Watts indicate that there will be a standalone M-Scaler at some point as well.

 

that Xilinx XC7A200T FPGA theyre using operates at 1 volt, so even if its drawing 10amps its only 10 watts, so that seems like an excuse to me.

...its also not even close to the biggest or most powerful, but im sure its enough to get the job done

 

Well ... Chord, or John Franks at least, likes to claim that the Poly uses proprietary technology not available elsewhere, so that sort of thing isn't new.

Which is a bit of a shame, as any half-way competent bargain-basement cell-phone SoC/chipset, minus the baseband and cellular radios, could do the exact same job (as the Poly) and probably with a great deal more reliability.

Hell, even the FiiO X5iii, which must be the umpteenth re-cycling of the relatively naff RK3188 can do fundamentally the same shit with fewer problems.

--

Don't get me wrong, I like some of their products, and own a couple or three, but they do make some claims that seem pretty absurd on the surface at times.

 

Some guy on youtube has a shootout of some nice DACs



Metrum Adagio
Rockna Wave Dream Signature
Cos D-1
Denafrips Terminator

He seemed to really like the Adagio in his later follow up videos. Might be something to look forward to or at least finding out out much the level 2 Pavane really compares to the Adagio in terms of just sound quality.

 

You might want to read this:
http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...listening-impressions.2094/page-3#post-150775

Btw there's no more Pavane Level 1 and 2, only Pavane Level 3.
The real question is: how good is the preamp functionality of Adagio compared to a Level 3 Pavane if you bypass the headphone amplifier's volume control and use the Adagio as a DAC & preamp?

 

I'm interested in the iFi iDSD Pro because on paper (specs) looks like it would fall between a Hugo 2 and a Dave. But yeah, they took the kitchen sink approach and just loaded it with unnecessary gizmos. Upsampling to DSD 1024 in hardware sounds tasty though. I'll wait for a @Torq or other senior member's impressions.

 

Hell yes, totally checks out:

(source)

John Franks. eat your heart out.

 

My interest in the Pro iDSD has waned to the point that I wouldn't even bother participating in a loaner tour for it - unless someone was literally dropping it in my lap and picking it up again later. And even then I'm not sure I could muster the enthusiasm to bother.

As recently as a few months ago, the Pro iDSD seemed like it would be a natural complement to my Pro iCAN for use in a compact desktop rig. It seems that so much of the Pro iCAN is being duplicated in the Pro iDSD that on one hand I'm sure it'll be a lovely all-in-one unit and, on the other, it's a bit of a piss-take if you already own the Pro iCAN. Then they added LinkPlay, which I have active disinterest in (not the least reason for which being it lacks support for the ONE streaming/network player provider I actually care about ... namely Roon).

Then they announced the final price.

And that afternoon I went out and bought a Hugo 2 to fulfill DAC duties in that rig instead.

That I can actually use portably too, and is a really nice pairing with the Pro iCAN for the more demanding cans I sometimes use in the office. It has it's own issues, but they're much less irritating than lots of pointless, expensive, fluff that'll never get used.

So, absent consistent, copious, absolutely gushing "this beats Hugo 2/is as good as Yggdrasil Analog 2" type reviews from people that I trust, iFi have shot their bolt on the Pro iDSD with me. It feels like exactly what I'd expect for a product that has been delayed for years while being developed-by-comittee. Every feature known to man, and no focus whatsoever.

It might well make an excellent streaming-capable all-in-one solution, and compete well against things like the Auralic Altair (which you hear very little about ... possibly an indication of how small a niche units like that really serve), but that's not what I'm personally after.

Maybe it'll turn out to be a superlative DAC for the price, even with all the extra guff included, but $2,499 is Yggdrasil Analog 2 territory and, well, my experiences - as documented in this thread - have shown, for me at least, that's a very challenging space to play in.

I'm not holding my breath.

 

Really glad to see this thread is once again active and informative.

Thank you.

 

Schiit

Yggdrasil vs. Yggdrasil "Analog 2" vs. "the Rest"

Introduction:

For the purposes of this write-up “Yggdrasil” will refer to the original, un-upgraded, unit (USB Gen 3, original DAC/analog boards, and original DSP/filter software). “Analog 2” is the latest unit with the new DAC/analog boards, USB Gen 5 and the updated DSP/filter.

The latest upgrade to Yggdrasil is the “Analog 2” update. This comprises, depending on the age of your unit, the following:

• A new pair of DAC/analog boards.

The name “Analog 2” refers to the fact that, while the DAC and analog sections are on the same board, it’s the analog section and board-implementation that’s been updated.​

• Possibly a DSP/filter update (ROM swap).

This update was made as a running revision and has been shipping in production Yggdrasil units for a long time now.​

It’s worth noting that comparing old and new DSP/filter versions, something I did before installing the original set of pre-production “Analog 2” boards, did not yield a discernible audible difference. Maybe there is one, but if it’s there then I don’t hear it. I can see the effect in measurements, but I can’t hear it.​

Comparison Setup:

All units involved had at least 200 continuous power-on, music-playing, hours on them prior to comparison, so concerns about the units being cold can be eliminated.

First comparisons were done in a blind(ish) fashion. The involves the use of my “Blind Test Assist Box”. This lets me do various accurately-level-matched (0.1 dB) unsighted AB(X) comparisons, in an automated fashion, without another party to help. Using this, it’s not uncommon for it to take a number of passes and a lot of protracted listening to get to a point where I am reliably identifying a difference, and longer still until I can call the specific unit out reliably.

Discerning a difference between Bifrost and Modi MB, for example, took a lot of listening and practice to be able to do properly. It also needed longer comparisons – with 1-2 minute slices it was a lot more reliable than with 10 second switches.

With Yggdrasil vs. Analog 2 it was easy to hear a difference and I was able to correctly identify when the source had changed in the comparison without any practice. Deciding what, specifically, had changed in such snippets was a bit tougher – and isn’t really in the realm of this sort of blind (or blind-ish) test.

Note: I currently own both original and "Analog 2" spec Yggdrasil units. And it is in direct, back-to-back comparisons, that these notes have been compiled, and impressions formed. This is also true for the comparisons with the original and "pre-production" Analog 2 boards.

The Wheel of Time (or “Then and Now”):

Going back several months, hell, nearly a year now I guess, since I lived in a different house on the other side of the lake at the time, I made a profile post to the effect of:

“Well, Schiit … this changes everything …”​

That was in response to my first hour listening to properly warmed-up prototype “Analog 2” boards. I hate claims like “night and day” differences (this will come up again, at least once, maybe more). Most DAC-level changes in audible performance are, at best, very subtle (even though the nature of subjective reviews tends to suggest much bigger differences). And this was “just” an upgrade to part of a complete DAC implementation. But, in this case, it really was (and is) a major, obvious, and unmissable difference.

At this point in my DAC evaluations, I had Chord’s DAVE slightly ahead of Yggdrasil, Linn’s latest “Katalyst” equipped Klimax-level DS player as the best digital replay I’d heard to date, and the PS Audio DirectStream (and Jr.), Metrum Pavane (what would be considered “L1” today) and Holo Audio Spring DAC KTE/L3 in direct competition, despite different signatures. In fact, this is reflected in the current state of the rankings/evaluations in this thread.

If the reviews/impressions covered in this thread had been performed with the “Analog 2” version of Yggdrasil, things would be very different.

In fact, I think it’s fair to say that, at best, maybe DAVE and the Linn Klimax (Katalyst) units might have retained their “=” rankings vs. Analog 2. Maybe not. But everything else would NOT have earned those in the first place.

…

LOTS has changed since I first started testing the “Analog 2” prototype. PS Audio has released two firmware updates for their DirectStream DACs (the most recent of which, “Redcloud” is a major step forward ... and maybe the biggest firmware-related change I've ever heard in an audio product), Linn has also released multiple filter/firmware updates. And Metrum don’t even offer the version of the Pavane that I originally auditioned.

Since we’re a technologically advanced species, or, at least, because I have my original notes saved away, I think it’s worth sharing my original “how things were at the time” impressions of the updated Yggdrasil boards vs. everything else.

So, let’s do that now.

You’ll have to forgive the narrative style they take – they were originally written in a form I intended to share, here, quite close to when they were written. But, as I said, that was quite a while ago and this update was formally released a lot later than I originally thought it might be (entirely my-bad on that front).

For what follows “Yggdrasil+” is the version with the pre-production Analog 2 boards installed.

Anyway, here we go, my original notes in their entirety:

>>>

Original Yggdrasil vs. Yggdrasil "Analog 2" (Yggdrasil+) Listening Notes:

I generally prefer to stay away from hyperbole as much as possible. I don’t like phrases like “night and day” when referring to differences. But I’m finding it very hard not to go precisely to that place in considering Yggdrasil+.

I would never have thought of Yggdrasil as having any veil whatsoever. Nor would I have considered it rendering anything less than an inky-black background (I know some claimed it had more of a “dark grey” background at some point, and that little discussion raged for a while on Head-Fi, but I’ve never heard that myself, even if I think I know what's being referred to). It’s always played music, always been emotionally involving, and I’ve struggled to find any fault with it at all.

And somehow, sitting listening to the new boards, I find the difference is a lot bigger than I would ever have expected. Yggdrasil+ is definitely portraying a much darker background and both tonality and the general presentation of music seem immediately more vivid and defined as a result. That’s an impression that I got from first powering on with the Yggdrasil+ boards, and over the course of getting it fully back up to temperature it has remained and, perhaps, even become more obvious.

And, as I conjectured with the Linn unit, I don’t know if it’s down to this apparently absolutely-black-hole-black background, or other factors in combination with it, the net effect is that seemingly every aspect of the unit’s performance has taken a step forward.

Detail/resolution – or “plankton” as @Marvey would refer to it – is noticeably improved. Be it the reverberation of a drum-skin, tiny changes in the grating of the voices of some of my favorite blues and soul artists, or the ability to pick out things that were previously somehow obscured, like what sounds like the beater inadvertently brushing a triangle after the intended strike, in one of Tanita Tikaram’s tracks (Twist in my Sobriety), there is seemingly new information being presented in almost everything I’ve listened to that’s of any reasonable quality at all.

Macro dynamics were already top-notch, with the most convincing slam and sense of weight in the business (as far as I’ve heard) and micro-dynamics were right there too … But, yet, again, with very subtle shifts in volume, particularly listening to some of the more gravelly male vocal deliveries (and at least one with Diana Krall), you can hear those level changes far more readily than I have before using the Yggdrasil+ boards.

Instrumental separation is also, likewise, improved. While it was always possible to delineate different instruments in a row with the original, provided the source material was good enough, with Yggdrasil+ it’s less of a case of “listen for it” and more that it’s instantly obvious. In challenging contemporary music, it was always interesting to me to try and follow a single part of the melody, or a specific instrument (basslines were often especially hard for this), and to see how hard that was to do. The easier it was, the better I consider the DAC. So this is another area in which the new version clearly outperforms the original.

Even with dense, complex, classical pieces, the general sense of the performance is maintained while simultaneously making it feel as if every individual instrument (not just section or row) is clearly outlined, playing in its own space, and can be heard distinctly.

One thing I did get, as part of my first impressions of these new boards, was a general sense that the presentation seems a bit brighter and also smoother than I was used to with the original. With more listening (and/or more warm up time), this impression faded and instead I was left with a greater sense of detail and a return to what I’d consider the “proper” tonality.

Perhaps another way to try and say some of this, even by way of summary, is that while the original version has been my benchmark since, well, I got it really, the new version really does improve upon it – and seemingly across the board. The difference is pretty much a literal case of “Before – I had to listen specifically for some of these things” to “After – I couldn’t miss them if I tried.”

I’m not used to this level of difference in terms of product iterations. In fact, it’s rarely so pronounced even between entirely different products of this caliber.

I find the difference between original Yggdrasil and DAVE is smaller than the difference between Yggdrasil and Yggdrasil+. It’s a bit closer with the KDS/3, but not much. And, while I’d already moved DAVE down a slot in my estimation through more time spent with it, the pecking order would be, for me, now quite firmly:

Yggdrasil+ > Linn KDS/3 =>/> Yggdrasil > DAVE​

Which is another way of saying that the iteration of Yggdrasil+ I have in my hands, or at least installed in my rack, is again, the best DAC I’ve heard.

<<<

That was my first pass at trying to describe the improvements/differences I’d heard. The end result was me listening to a lot more music with the new boards than I typically do and, at the same time, finding myself more involved, engrossed … more connected to, and affected by, what I’m hearing than ever.

--

Return to Innocence … or, at least, “Return to Now”:

Okay, that’s a poor bastardization of a favorite song-title, but I’m going with it. As I have already intimated (or outright stated), a lot has changed since I wrote the notes above. Not so much in terms of my impressions of the original Yggdrasil vs. the Analog 2 upgrade, but certainly in where things sit in comparison to some of the prior front-runners in this excessively long-running comparison.

Alas, due to lack of time, an(other) open bottle of claret, my better half just having returned home, and the fact that I’m a complete bastard, the proper treatment of how “Analog 2” compares to the front-runner DACs as they sit today will have to wait until tomorrow*.

But, in my best impression of Douglas Adams, and his desire to reduce unnecessary stress in the universe, I will say that if you’re on the fence about buying a current-spec Yggdrasil then you should just pull the trigger right now.

And if you have an original Yggdrasil, you’re simply NOT** going to find a more sonically, musically, and obviously rewarding way to spend $550 (plus whatever the shipping costs you) than to send the thing in for the “Analog 2” upgrade.

Details will be forthcoming.

--

*Or Monday, depending on just quite how bastardish I’m feeling, and how the weekend goes.

**Unless you’ve accidentally purchased the Audio-GD S19 listed on “HF”***.

***You didn't? Did you?!