Schiit Mjolnir 3 Impressions

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by ColtMrFire, Aug 18, 2023.

  1. Greg121986

    Greg121986 Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Likes Received:
    426
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    I really like this summary of the Bliss! I concur similarly with my Bliss KTE, Utopia, and Empyrean. What I'm reading in the MJ3 and Bliss comparo linked above does not give me anything that would take me away from my Bliss. Really looking forward to hearing more thoughts on the two.

    Edit, forgot to add this last part. The price is reasonable, but I would like to see the MJ3 with relay-switched stepped attenuator based volume control for proper channel matching. That is a major feature I really love about my Bliss and gladly pay extra for. Unbalanced channels is one of my biggest nervosas. I have not had a modern Schiit headamp that did not cause me grief with its potentiometer volume implementation and channel mis-match, so that is a big deal breaker for me on the MJ3. It would be interesting to hear why this is implemented in stereo pre-amp products and not something like the MJ3. I'm sure there is a reasonable justification. I feel it's more critical in a headamp due to it being more likely that headphone listeners will utilize lower volumes. I cannot be the only one who listens to headphones at low volumes.

    The Bliss costs $3600 by the time it's all said and done. I think there is room in the market for a US made product that eliminates any gap between something like MJ3 and Bliss.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  2. wbass

    wbass Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Likes Received:
    1,589
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    London, UK
    FWIW, I did audition the Susvara on a few different amps: Phonitor, MHA150, and Feliks Envy. These were in-store auditions, but in relatively quiet environments. Phonitor was okay to promising. A bit lean. MHA150 was very good. And Envy pairing was pretty special to my ears.

    So, I think I have, personally, heard a $$$$ specialist amp for the Sus making a difference.

    In a few weeks, I should be able to do a ridiculous (on all levels) compare between:

    --Ferrum stack
    --Enleum
    --BHA-1
    --Studio Jr
    --Phonitor SE (single-ended only)
    --DNA Starlett
    --and a couple different speaker amps

    Lord knows what I'll find. Gonna stay open-eared and not let $$$ sway me too much. Like a lot of folks on the HeadFi Susvara thread, I'd actually like to find an amp on the cheaper end that does well on the Sus. So far I haven't, but am (unsurprisingly, b/c who likes to spend more) open to it.

    I think a lot of the Sus specialist amps are slightly tuned to it. Adding in a bit of mid-bass, sweetening the top end ever so slightly. So it could be power, impedance matching, overall quality of components, and also a bit of tuning that go into making a good Sus pairing.

    Or maybe it's just a bit flukey. I was surprised, trying different amps on the HE6SE, to prefer a relatively cheap Peachtree Audio integrated over a bunch of much pricier amps.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  3. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    9,974
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Texas and California
    Home Page:
    No room. Not a microprocessor product. It's a hammer.

    And with a custom Alps RK27114, channel matching is fantastic. Magni-sized stuff with RK09 is harder (but 10000% better than only a couple of years ago, thanks to custom spec), but anything with RK27 is really, really good (Asgard and up.)
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    What you found was synergy in concordance with your preferences, not specialist amp designed for X or Y or Z. The rest of it was marketing spiel. "power enough for the most demanding headphones" (implying "hard to drive" orthos). 8W! Stoke your dicks. Blah blah blah.

    Except they don't state conditions of the 8W. What load. What THD? I bet it's 1W at 5%THD into a Susvara load. So much for powah. So much for the advertising spiel.

    Now if it works, and I have no doubt it does, it's probably because it's just a good amp qualitatively (and also because it's a 300B amp). I'll bet you if I put steely Elrog 300Bs and an Apogee Pro DAC, the Susvaras will sound like shit. Goodness with Susvara has nothing to do with "hard-to-drive" powah requirements.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  5. rott

    rott Secretly hates other millenials - Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,213
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nation's Capital of failure
    Would the Gungnir A1 (original Gungnir Multibit) fare similarly with MJ3? It's what I'll be using regardless (MJ3 should be here next week). Using ZMF Auteur/VC/Atrium.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Too long ago. A1 is slightly warm. What are you using now? I think you should be good TBH.
     
  7. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

    Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2016
    Likes Received:
    10,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    East Coast
    ^
    120% agreed.

    I'm so glad I was not the only one who thought that way. While I do have amp preferences toward some over others, that's never associated with what I deem 'driving'. Imho headphone load is inherently easy to drive except for Ribbon products (sr1a, ca1a, lcd-r, etc) which have extremely low impedance. It's rather each amp's expressional trait plus its harmony with the rest of my chain (+ my ears + my brain + my expectation + my mood + etc.)
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 3
    • List
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    The Feliks Envy and Susvara get a lot of attention together for good reason: high price, good qualitatively, public-agreed upon synergy. It's not because the Feliks has "the powah" to "drive the most demanding power hungry headphones" because it really doesn't have much power.

    ^ This. The Susvara isn't that inefficient. It isn't current hungry. It's nowhere as stupid inefficient as the OG HE-6.
    • The question should be made as follows: How goes X amp sound with my favorite planar? What's the sonic synergy? Will this suit my tastes?
    • It should not be framed: Is this amp approved for my hard-to-drive powah / current hungry planar that requires specialist powerful amps.
    We have been way past CMOYs for a while now.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • heart heart x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  9. Gazny

    Gazny MOT: ETA Audio

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    May 11, 2020
    Likes Received:
    2,229
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    open sky
    I believe most attribute high gain to to high performance. But that’s mostly the potentiometer and little to do with the output capability.

    Any chance we can get some measurements?Curious when this amp breaks 1% thd under different settings.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    This is the thing that f'ing pisses me off. Someone noted: "oh Mjolnir 3 only 2W? Is that enough to powah the most powerful planars?" (To be clear I am not pointing fingers or calling anyone out. I'm pointing out the state of the industry, the state of lack of understanding on the part of consumers, the state of marketing).

    This f'ing random wattage figure is now serving a a litmus test for high-end (usually less efficient) planar suitability? Give me a f'ing break.

    Especially given that manufacturers and retailers love throwing f'ing random wattage numbers around (calling out Feliks and Egoista) without any context, no mention of load, no mention of how long that number can be sustained, etc. "This toob amp is powahful at 12W, and mine is 8W. Look how stronk our peepees are." (Toobs have no powah and higher Z out, which means even less effective powah).

    And even worse, how audiophiles suck it up and take random numbers at face value.

    OK, I get it. Maybe that USB powered iFi Gold BAR ain't gonna do every well with the Susvara, Abyss, HE6SE, but c'mon.

    If the Mjolnir 3 sucks balls with X or Y four-figure planar, then it's because it sucks balls with them. Not because it's "only 2W".
     
    • Like Like x 10
    • Epic Epic x 4
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 4
    • List
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  11. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,906
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Europe
    Tired, as i am, i misread that as if there would be a 230v loaner as well.

    Anywho i'm glad you decided for a 230v as well, always appreciated.



    Too many and i can't blame them. Until i experienced enough with my own ears that's the way i thought "it should be" until i disagreed. It didn't take long but i can understand why so many prefer to believe in it, since it "makes it easier" to choose new gear.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • heart heart x 1
    • List
  12. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    This is a very sore topic with me as well. Too many spec chasers that focus on single specs out of context.

    How many would think 115 dB SPL might be VERY LOUD?
    It IS VERY LOUD.
    Now consider how much power is necessary to achieve 115 dB SPL for various headphones:
    Headphone sensitivity 115 dB SPL power.png

    Only the HE-6 and Susvara come close to pushing 2W. There is still margin as both need only 1.6W to achieve 115 dB SPL.

    At 100 dB SPL listening levels the power requirements aren't even close to 2W:
    Headphone sensitivity 100 dB SPL power.png

    HE-6 and Susvara require only 50 mW to achieve 100 dB SPL. All others are significantly less.
    Consider by not chasing higher power the designer can trade off for lower background noise, less negative feedback, more time spent in Class A operation, etc.

    So I suggest those who worship high power chase Class D amps and leave the rest of us alone.
     
    • Like Like x 23
    • Epic Epic x 5
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 4
    • List
  13. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2021
    Likes Received:
    1,753
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    I completely agree. But just to clarify, is that peak or RMS power in your table?

    Just because Mjonir power stated is RMS, and want to make sure we're apples and apples.
     
  14. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    Those power levels are calculated using P = Vrms^2 / R nominal using the mfg stated sensitivity and nominal impedance. Many of them have been checked in the lab to verify mfg specifications.
     
  15. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2021
    Likes Received:
    1,753
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    Perfect, thanks!
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    The secondary part to this argument is the bullshit drivel about how specific powerful amps are a prerequisite for high-end planar headphones that supposedly require tons of power such as the Abyss or Susvara (which @atomicbob has demonstrated that they do not require a ton of power).

    Let's take two example pairings that we hear about often: (Woo WA5 + Abyss) and (Feliks Envy + Susvara)

    I quote the following from the Internets. Will not provide sources so as not to embarass anyone:

    WA5-LE ...The 8W 4-pin XLR is one of the most handy outputs to have, as it is able to effortlessly drive the AKG K1000, and is one of the better choices for driving the HE-6 or Abyss headphones, which requires tons of power. Even the single-ended output has the same power and this makes it much more versatile than ever as it is one of the more powerful tube headphone amplifiers

    Feliks Audio Envy is a single-ended class-A headphone amp ... designed to handle planar magnetic or dynamic headphone with an impedance between 16 and 600 ohm... provides extra power for especially power-hungry planar magnetics ... for the Abyss 1266 and HifiMan Susvara.

    Both of these amps are 300B SET amps. They will get us maybe 8W into 8-ohms to 1% distortion on good day, and that's with the plate voltage cranked up. Now driving the 50-ohm Abyss and 60-ohm Susvara? Maybe 1-1.5W? Driving 32-ohm planars? Let's say 2W.

    So let's summarize. These two planar speciality amps that "provides extra power", have "tons of power", for driving "power-hungry planar magnetics":

    Load - Approx Power Output (of the above uber amps with da "Powah for Planars")
    50-ohms - 1 to 1.5W RMS
    32-ohms - 2W RMS (maybe a bit more on a good day?)

    So now we have established the what it takes to have the power of grayskull, He-Man, behind us to power these "hard to drive planars" (which really aren't that hard to drive). I now present this:

    upload_2023-9-1_20-45-6.png

    Doh!

    If you want me to translate real fast, these so called "powerful high-end amps", supposedly among the few on this planet capable of powering the most power hungry planars, actually have less He-Man powah than the diminutive Magni+ (For the record, because I didn't want to sound like a Schiit shill, I tried to find power into load figures for other amps like the iFi Zen CAN, but I couldn't find them. Hey, not my fault it's so hard to find real power numbers).

    Going Forward

    Next time a manufacturer, reviewer, youboober, head-fi'er, fellow audiophile spouts power numbers, ask them this: Into what load? And at how much THD?

    On Mjolnir 3

    Now why da f**k does Mjolnir sound like it's "20W"? Heck do I know? There are numerous sayings. One is not all watts are created equal. Another is that one pure class A watt, that is bonafide class A, which means big heatsinks, and gear that will heat up your room and will burn your skin off, are worth ten class AB watts. Most of you guys are too young to have heard these sayings.
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Epic Epic x 4
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 3
    • List
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Exactly right. The topologies are different. They are going to sound different.

    The Mjolnir 3 output stage is SE Class A (real Class A, not high-bias AB) with I what suspect would moderate distortion along with "low" power (already known and stated). The Mjolnir 3 will likely appeal to people who like the Eddie Current tube amps. It doesn't totally sound like an EC amp (nor do EC amps to each other), but there's a similarity. Or maybe think of the Mjolnir 3 has a cleaned-up Folkvangr. A Folkvangr without the dirt, fuzzy, and phat. This is probably what draws me to it. Unfortunately, like big SE DHT tube amps, it's also serves as space heater.

    As @schiit said, this amp is a hammer. It achieves what it does by the most straightforward simple brute-force way possible. No microprocessor. No relay ladder volume control. No feedback (or a little). SE Class A (or PP), which like letting the shower run at max the entire time because it's simple. Only NPN parts in the output, none of the complementary NPN/PNP arrangements.

    A warning on something that was touched on, but may be fully realized by most people. This amp gets hot. The following FLIR were taken in 75C / 24F ambient temperature about ten minutes after being turned on. This amp will get a little bit hotter than this after thirty minutes. It's sitting on top of the Yggdrasil+ (which is a bad idea, ideally the Mjolnir 3 should sit alone with nothing hot under it).

    Heatsink 46.7C / 117F
    FLIR_20230901_092139_678.jpg

    Volume Knob 31.5C / 88.7F (this one will get much hotter over time)
    FLIR_20230901_092208_011.jpg

    Chassis 32.2C / 90.0F
    FLIR_20230901_092214_146.jpg

    Yes, the Mjolnir 3 gets hot (and hotter as the minutes go by) and people may not feel comfortable about this.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • List
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2023
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Update. Now this is more like it. Again, prospective buyers should consider if they really want this small reactor in their house. The chassis also purrs like a cat if you put your hand on it.

    56.7C / 134F
    FLIR_20230901_101116_139.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
  19. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    667
    Trophy Points:
    93
    -This would still be a bit better than DHT SET amps in terms of heat dumped into surroundings right? How would it fare against non-DHTs like Starlett and Folkvangr?

    -And if I'm understanding class A correctly, if you're using lower-efficiency headphones with the Mjolnir 3, more of the power gets used by the headphones and less turns into heat?
     
  20. tranq

    tranq Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Likes Received:
    229
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    US Midwest
    what temperature is considered too hot to touch?

    I don't have a FLIR. but it takes my MJ3 about 4.5 hours to get hot enough that I can't touch the heat sink.

    Funny thing is I can place my hand directly over the heat sink, and touch the aluminum cover and not have it be too hot. As soon as I touch the sink its too hot. I found that surprising. I figured the heat sinks would radiate heat a bit better.
     

Share This Page