Violence begets violence begets violence. If you are on the short end of might, better techniques are to go MLK, Gandhi, Mandela. Pulling off a "Pearl Harbor" or "9-11" only means more suffering.
@purr1n ding ding ding. There's a good reason why Egypt and Jordan don't want the lands back, even when Israel offered it more than once in the past as part of the peace process. Israel even gave a good offer to Yasser Arafat back in the 90s for a bunch of land to be returned, but for him to reject it.
The Palestinians never created a viable state. They more or less had autonomy in Gaza and the West Bank. Far more autonomy than Hong Kong today. Instead of factories, businesses, high civil service like SG, they built tunnels for hostage taking and rockets for pot-shots. People also forget that Hamas was the offshoot of Islamic Jihad, the OG suicide bombers. OG suicide bombers were not the 9-11 guys. It was before.
Oh, I know enough Jews to know that no two Jews think the same. I'm just the non-Jew at the table and participating. I've gathered my info and developed my ideas, but am curious about other points of view.
One thing as a major eye opener: Why a bunch of college students supporting a cause (different from a group of people) that really hate their guts? I saw those Queers for Palestine posters and I’m like…mmmm yeah about that….
From where I am sitting: Hamas, the duly elected rulers of Gaza, decided to launch their Pearl Harbor. Whether this was a negotiation tactic, hostage grab, cry for international help, it resulted in a war. As we have seen in Vietnam & Afghanistan, winning wars requires TOTAL war, esp. against a stubborn opponent, like firebombing every city in Japan, leaving two, only to nuke them. Israel can't afford to lose wars.
War is horrifying. It's insanity. And it's always the result of a lack of wisdom from one or both parties. This is just going to end badly. Doesn't take a crystal ball to know this was going to happen given the history of Israel.
A story about war: my wife, being the American who celebrated every birthday to the hilt since she was 1 years old, asked my father about how he celebrated birthdays (I cringed a little bit). In broken English, he replied: Oh no. War. B29s. Bombing. Fire. We no time for birthdays. Taiwan part of Japan in WW2.
As far as Queers for Palestinians, it's the underdog deal. College kids, especially privileged ones. I bet the Queers for Palestinians don't get that Hamas and Islamic Jihad would throw them off the roof of the building once their alliance is over.
I have seen opinions elsewhere to the effect, 'but if the Palestinians would only integrate...' But what chance were they ever given to integrate.
Don't think I am supporting what Hamas did. But do think that I am saying that, so far as *modern* history is concerned, yes the Palestinians are the victims.
"Whether this was a negotiation tactic, hostage grab, cry for international help, it resulted in a war"
It might have been just crazy. It might have been suicidally stupid. Looks that way. Turning the coin over: Hamas seems to be Jihad-crazy, don't mind dying in the least, don't give a f**k about their fellow citizens being slaughtered.
Gaza/Palestine is not a state. It is an occupied territory. This is not a war in the way we think of wars as between two autonomous nation states. Israel cut off food, water, and electricity the day after 10/7. And Palestinians have tried many nonviolent forms of protest and were shot.
Israel has targeted hospitals, refugee camps, significant cultural sites, committing a multitude of war crimes. Blaming Palestinians would be like blaming Uighurs when they react violently to China’s oppression.
And MLK well understood that if nonviolent protest is met with continued violence by state powers, the results will be violence by the oppressed because they have no other recourse.
I am not condoning the 10/7 attack. I am saying Israel pushed and pushed and pushed Palestinians until some felt this was the only way they could respond. It was not unprovoked aggression, although Israeli propaganda sure is trying to sell it that way.
Netanyahu also took great pains to ensure Hamas remained in power in Palestine over more moderate factions because those moderate factions would have been a compelling cause for Palestinian statehood. As long as Netanyahu kept Hamas in power, he could point to them as terrorists and say that justifies the occupation.
Between that and confirmed reports that Israeli intelligence had direct knowledge of the plans carried out on 10/7, the blame can be laid directly on the Israeli government. And that’s before we include the confirmed reports of the IDF shooting at crowds that included Jews and Israeli citizens!
Over half of the population of Gaza is under 18. They weren’t alive to vote in Hamas, and Israel ensured no one else could take over from Hamas for that entire period.
And even if Hamas had the full popular support of Palestinians, which by all accounts they do not, mass indiscriminate bombing is not a proportional response to 10/7. This is the fallout of 9/11 all over again.
When Netanyahu and other Israeli officials say their goal is to wipe out Hamas, they literally mean every man in Palestine older than a small child, and the IDF also routinely shoots small children!
Harder said than done. Up to the people get rid themselves of Hamas. All this bombing of civilians, that's purely on Hamas for using them as human shields. Israel has gone mad, but this is what happens when Hamas' 10/7 military objective was to kill civilians or take them hostage.
Israel's stated military objective is to wipe out Hamas. If they wanted to wipe out all Palestinians, they would not have sent warnings to evacuate, used precision munitions, sent ground forces to strategically isolate pockets of Hama fighters or bothered with the seawater pumps on the tunnels. The strip isn't that big. Carpet bombing could have worked.
I will concede that Israel military planners are much more willing to risk collateral damage (killings civilians) than in the past, and that Netanyahu played both sides and every side. The PMs who make progress with peace seemed to get assassinated or suddenly die in office. Ultimately, this is war. Innocents die in war. Pragmatism says Might is Right. Theorycrafting doesn't work.
Yes @purr1n but the bar closed at Midnight and not opened yet when someone came back for round 2 with only an AZN bartender trying to open the bar for the afternoon.
I think you have it right @purr1n
You have a grasp of the situation and are able to bring balance to the force. I’m just going to sit quietly in the corner of the bar and sip my whiskey because there’s nothing more to say. Don’t mind me and my heavy sighs and eye rolling.
@Merrick most of what you are repeating is pure propaganda BS
What is coming out of Israel mirrors real-life experience living in Israel and serving in the IDF. Have you lived in Israel or visited Gaza or the West Bank?
WTF man? “Israel's *obvious* intent is to wipe out Palestine[ians].”
This is not true. The intent is simple and stated ad nauseum: decapitate Hamas and get their hostages back.
It's what I see. It seems to be what much of the world sees. Maybe it helps not to have a stake* in the game to be able to see.
In what circumstances could a country suffer what happened on 7 October and NOT have the whole world's sympathy? By reacting as Israel has, and continues to react.
@gaspasser I make a habit of not supporting apartheid states, which precludes me visiting them. I have had to miss family weddings because of this but that’s a small price to pay. I also follow the BDS recommendations of companies to boycott and do my best to avoid any company headquartered in Israel.
@Merrick do you know where the money comes from to fund the BDS movement? What is your definition of an apartheid state? You really drank the Kool-Aid on this one. You may as well just say your pro-Hamas. Do you think that Hamas was justified in what they did on 10/7? Did Israel deserve this?
@Thad E Ginathom ”In what circumstances could a country suffer what happened on 7 October and NOT have the whole world's sympathy? By reacting as Israel has, and continues to react.”
Easy: 9/11 and the US response to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.
And there it is. I say I oppose Israel’s ongoing and pervasive oppression of Palestinians and I get accused of supporting Hamas. I didn’t say I support Hamas, I NEVER said anyone deserved to be killed on 10/7 or any other day. I oppose the mass killing of innocents, period.
@gaspasser Exactly, the US squandered all the international goodwill generated by 9/11 by waging forever wars and unilaterally attacking another nation. Israel has is squandering all of its international goodwill from 10/7 by committing genocide. Pretty obvious parallel.
Apparently “don’t kill children or leave children without families, don’t bomb schools and hospitals and refugee camps and cultural sites” is “drinking the kool-aid”.
Israel has never had any international goodwill, look at the UN’s treatment of it. That’s why they DGAF about what anyone says of their actions. Israel needs to take care of protecting themselves first.
@Merrick I am never going to convince you of your myopia, ignorance and overall pitiable gullibility in your unwavering support of people and ideology you don’t understand. Only actually visiting these places and seeing the peoples’ actions will convince you of the folly of your ideology. You’ve been brainwashed. I give up.
Am Yisrael Chai.
@gaspasser Your defenses of Israel defend an ideology and actions that are morally equivalent to the ones that almost wiped our people out in Europe. I am not the one defending genocide here. Goodbye.
@gaspasser We are all Jews, whether we like it or not. Believe me, I’d rather not have any genetic or cultural ties to the people committing atrocities right now, but I do and that is part of why I have to stand against it so vehemently. It is a moral imperative, founded in my Judaism.
Read these "rules" AND introduce
yourself before your first post
Being true to what the artists intended
(opinion / entertainment piece)
Comments on Profile Post by purr1n