Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    One can derive B&K AES 1970 curve from Harmon (B&K is perpetual neutral - typical response from at listening position in a listening room from speakers that measure flat on-axis @ 1m) . We still need to start a thread on what's wrong with Harmon target. It's a good consumer target.

    Also, if indeed Amir is using Harmon for headphones, then it would seem to be competing standards with his speaker measurements.
     
  2. Tekker

    Tekker Rando

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    My very first expensive headphone (AKG K540) was Harmon tuned.

    I hated the sound immediatly after I got them; male vocals were recessed, upper-mids were shouty and harsh, just blegh.

    Can't understand why the "general" consumer likes it. If the emphasis was only at the upper-treble instead of both the upper-mids and upper-treble, and there wouldn't be a lower-mid suckout, I would understand it more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The Harmon curved was arriving by polling listeners, both trained, untrained, or trained via an Harmon program? Within any group, things will skew to specific preferences. I don't have the AES report and won't pay for it, but I'm sure Dr. Olive's report may yield some answers here. The early tidbits I saw from IF showed pretty wild swings (standard deviation) in preference.

    Likewise we could do a poll on SBAF. The miniDSP EARS with SBAF target is actually result of this informal polling, at least from those who participated. As with any measurement system with pinna and concha, the results may vary depending upon headphone.

    The Harmon / Olive curve is sounds like shit and not anywhere near perceptual neutral. I will keep repeating this until the day I die. Most consumers I have lent neutralish headphones to generally just wanted moar bass.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  4. Tekker

    Tekker Rando

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    Yes I agree, even to someone with no experience at all with good sound (me back then), I thought "Did I really pay 80 euro's just for this?"

    The Harmon sound curve, imo, is made more to irritate a listener (due to the recessed male vocals, and shouty emphasized upper-mids, which creates a grating, distant sound) than to be pleasant.

    I actually think the FR-response Creative Aurvana Live with more extended sub-bass would be at the sweetspot of most, atleast in the Western part of the world, consumers looking for an expensive starting headphone. It certainly would have been for me at the time, but I neglected it because I wanted to experience the comfort of big velour pads (only had experience with cheap off the shelf closed supra-aurals, with hard pleather pads at the time)
     
  5. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Amir's review of JVC HA-SZ2000, and how disappointed he was with its bass, would be an interesting reading.
     
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  6. Mont789

    Mont789 Rando

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    Would explain posters that suddenly lash out about THD+N, Him and his mod showing up quick?.
     
  7. Degru

    Degru Rando

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    [​IMG]
    Right, totally a high-pass filter there, definitely not lack of seal, no way. This is a common problem with stax measurements from many sources, but still frustrating to see nonetheless.

    At least he included a distortion sweep in this 95x review because he apparently lost his imd graph from last time. No word on whether he's level-calibrated his rig yet, anyone wanna make a bet?
     
  8. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    To be fair, for perfect seal and the most exquisite bass you'd probably have to use a blue-tack mod. So unmodded, it's not surprising to at least have a degree of low-end roll-off. Would be best to average it from many measurements though, Amir probably didn't do many takes....
     
  9. Degru

    Degru Rando

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    Blue tack mod is only applicable to L300-700 and 007mk2 because those models are ported/don't seal between pads and headphone. The older lambda pads are attached with adhesive so the only loss of seal is due to bad measurements. Here he measured a 303 "for comparison" which should definitely seal as both the 202 and 404 do, from personal experience. Stax's own measurements from the back of their manuals don't have any rolloff.
     
  10. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    All of his headphone and headphone amp reviews talk about listening for distortion by cranking the volume until his ear lobes vibrate. Perhaps coincidentally, he has also posted about having significant hearing loss.
     
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  11. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    Thats... lol. It kind of hurts me to think about experiencing that as a regular thing. Ive hurt myself with speakers plenty and come out with lingering tinnitus. Ive gone to indoor shows and come back with the crickets for a couple of days after... but somehow the thought of making it a point to rattle my earlobes significantly with headphones scares me. I can feel the pain long before earlobes shake. How does he not feel that?

    I find it hard to believe... not to mention, its sort of an irresponsible thing to say to an audience who trusts what you say. If they listen to him on stuff like that, theyre gonna wreck themselves sooo bad.
     
  12. nishan99

    nishan99 Almost "Made"

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    ^
    Then he needs to listen to the Focal Elex, those headphones will rattle his eardrums way before 90dB!. Crazy slamming headphones.
     
  13. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    There are definitely exceptions haha. But EVERY headphone? Thats a yikes for me.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Already covered this. Amir doesn't hear high distortion when he doesn't want to hear it, but hears it when it wants to even when it's not scientifically discernable:
    Dude is full of crap when it comes to hearing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  15. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    topping after amir and silly measurements:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
  16. Degru

    Degru Rando

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    The recent Stax amp review is quite a disaster :)

    Let's measure estat amps with a 100k ohm resistive load and then argue that it's correct and relevant when someone like Kevin Gilmore is telling you that you're doing it totally wrong...

    Typical amir I guess but it just gets more blatant when he plows into unfamiliar territory with incorrect assumptions like this..
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I could give a shit about Kevin Gilmore because half (not all) of what is says is self-serving super dubious shit, but did Amir really measure a stat amp with a 100k-ohm load like a retard?

    Even if the load was correct, it would still be difficult to do with an AP-555 because the load across the test probes is probably 100k-ohms.
     
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  18. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    This made my day
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The procedure for Amir would have been to measure the impedance curve of a few electrostatic headphones (with the diaphragm energized), and then approximate this curve with appropriate value resistors and caps. Of course we already know the inherent 100-k impedance of the probes on the AP-555 will not be suitable, so really, Amir would have to find HV probes with high impedance on the order of tens of megaohms.

    It very well could be possible for the end result from the AP-555 to be the same or similar, but what Amir is doing is not scientific. It's noob.

    Don't you guys love how Amir is digging in his heels, ignoring what isn't convenient. This is so typical of his style. He keeps bragging about this time at Microsoft managing thousands of people, yet he keeps showing how ignorant he really is in regards to a lot of this stuff. Let's not even go back in time to "Amir-bits" and borking ENOB results before @ultrabike and Jude showed him the way.

    He's basically some random dude with $100k in gear who has no clue. It's sad how the Internets believes this guy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
  20. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Speaking as someone who doesn't know much about measurements (in the context of present company), it's not really all that great a shortcoming since there's a world of nuance to the process that takes ages to nurture. Heck, I didn't even think that e-stat gear required particular care be given despite it seeming obvious in hindsight due to how the underlying tech is significantly different from electrodynamics.

    ... but this guy just keeps bluffing long after it becomes sad and he's soundly disproven. What even.
     

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