Dynamic vs Estat Round 15

First bit, its just a theory, no i don't have experience as I've said in my reply to Marv.

In terms of speakers, yes. The sheer size of e-stat sheets in speakers make it unable to be as fast or as accurate in my opinion. However, diamond tweeters in my experience, sound like absolutely nothing. You can make that treble sound however you like using amps and source. At least that's my experience with the Marten's that i demo'ed. I only really liked estats in headphones.

Lets not go into Ad Hominem attacks just because your taste is different from mine.

 

Interesting discussion, here's my take...

I've done a bunch of "plankton peeping" myself and I can't say I hear Stax as any more or less resolving of low level information compared to good dynamics. Instead, what I have observed is that because the open-back Stax have such poor isolation, any amount of ambient noise will degrade perceived resolution, to a much greater extent than with open-back dynamics, most of which do have a bit of passive noise attenuation. I find normal neighbourhood and household noise detract more from the listening experience with Stax than with my other cans.

As for the test @gepardcv proposed, here's a track that could be useful, a minute-long recording of a single strike of the gong: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ifam65fs2o3zfly/67 - Gong 1.flac?dl=0. Ample amounts of decay as shown below, although it does seem to cut out before complete silence.



This track comes from a personal rip of ........ Audiostax The Test CD

Recording minutiae is probably in the booklet if people are interested.

Have fun... and as above, volume-matching may not be enough if you're not in a sufficiently deadened room.

 

There is measurable data to suggest otherwise. Serious FR irregularities with the diamond tweeters. Also wacky polar response which can light up the room in an uneven pattern, creating more problems. FWIW, some of us feel these measurable issues are indeed audible and very objectionable (and we noticed these issues before knowing the measurements). And yes we are talking about the Marten stuff, and as well as a few other implementations of the same Accuton driver combos.

Apologies for the crudeness, I will approach your arguments with more good will in the future.

 

I guess you're not talking about the tweeters themselves, but tradeoffs that have to be made in the crossover design then (because you specifically mention Marten stuff) are you?

 

That's not the tweeter at all. That's the bass and midrange. As I said, tradeoffs.

 

A well-executed crossover only gets you so far. The on-axis and off-axis response of the diamond tweeter (especially around that glare 8-10k range) will not go away. Even surgical digital PEQ will only get you so far for tweeters. The sound will likely remain.



Source: http://www.stereophile.com/content/m229rten-design-coltrane-loudspeaker-measurements


This is not the exact model that I've heard, but all of them seem to have the similar characteristic .

 

I don't think the 20mm tweeter itself has any off-axis issues around 8kHz, it's just way too small. That EQ can't get rid of driver texture is clear.
I was only talking about how different orders and approaches to crossover designs change the off axis response. Even then I can very well see myself ending up with a first order design. It just depends on what you value more.

I also do not think the diamond drivers sound like nothing, but to me they sound far less colored than the ceramic ones and other tweeters. I will probably still buy ceramic tweeters with the money I have. The same impression was consistent going from the same midrange made of ceramic to the diamond one. Diamond isn't perfect but I seem to prefer it (the Accuton kind - let's not even talk about B&W) over the other options.

 

Stand up and sit down in shaizada's room. Amount of HF energy not only changes, but also the change tone and smoothness is drastic. Granted his room is small and can only exacerbate issues.

 

That's just the 2nd order xover and 10kHz midrange ringing of the Bird 2 doing its thing. I bet the Coltrane Tenor (also 2nd order, but possibly a different midrange driver) isn't any better. The Mingus Quintet with its first order xover likely was even worse. Standing up always makes low order xover speakers sound very weird. Vertical off axis response is predefined by crossover design. There are also possibly diffraction issues or similar things.
Still, I stand by my claim that it's not the drivers themselves but rather the implementation that causes off axis issues and other very weird stuff. Yes, the driver rolls off after 10kHz (but keeps going strong to well over 50kHz, the 20mm one has a 72kHz breakup frequency) and isn't perfect but I don't see any ringing or off axis issues, etc.

Then again I've not been in shaizada's room. Maybe in November.


Anyway, don't want this thread to get detailed by stupid arguments about unobtainium drivers. Woops, too late.

 

Check the plot again. The midrange isn't outputting anything of note in the midtreble region. That only leaves the tweeter to create that unevenness. Nvm, it looks like they combined the tweeter and midrange response in that plot.

Not sure about the one Marv posted as that seems to only show the combined response, but given what we see with the Design Coltrane, I'd be willing to be it's the tweeters fault there as well.

 

Actually, it could very well be the midrange. I'm not sure what 10 year old drivers they used here, but some Accuton midranges have a 10db+ peak at 8-10kHz, so the wiggles and resonances could very well be the midrange. Damping cutouts dampen resonances and broaden them. In the CSDs the initial ~12db decay seems clean. All reasons to believe it's the midrange instead of the tweeters. I don't think Marten ever used very steep crossovers. Most likely 2nd order like the 2nd gen Martens.. It's a 4" midrange, so a lot of output at 8kHz and most likely a resonance somewhere there.
The lateral off-axis problems might be diffraction or something I'm forgetting. The vertical off-axis looks pretty clean above the crossover region, which would also indicate that the tweeter is fine. Tweeters should have the same off axis response in every direction.

The Coltrane 3 uses a first order crossover. This means getting resonances in the upper mids and lower treble from the bass driver and resonances in the mid treble from the midrange.

 

One of these days we can buy a pair of those diamond tweeters and test things out for ourselves. A much wiser SBAF purchase than the City Chicken Special Jr. that we lost 4 figures on.

 

I bet that someone with ears could make a great design with these drivers. Most of the people who use Accuton drivers don't seem to have ears and seem to target people who fap to awesome black piano finish, flashy white ribs or seeing the reflection of their tiny dick in the tiny diamond diaphragms.

 

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