Final Audio D8000 Pro - Out of the Dark Ages of Ortho Tech!

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by purr1n, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:01 PM.

  1. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    Title is a touch misleading, Final released the D8000 first with this technology with a very vintage type of sound tuning IMO. The D8000 Pro supposedly is a high volume version of the standard D8000 for studio use. Some say they feel the standard D8000 is the better one because of its unique sound which to an extent I agree, the D8K Pro seems like the better headphone even if the tuning leaves it opened to the hard hitters like Abyss 1266TC and Utopia.
    I'm not sure it can compete considering it's not scaling sensitive as other headphones which makes it a bargain IMO for a headphone focused system even if it lack behind a gear focused system e.g. with the humble HD650
     
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  2. HHS

    HHS Rando

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    This looks like an interesting headphone. I have the Sonorous IV from Final and it's a weird, messed up headphone that I sometimes love and sometimes just shake my head at. It was certainly an interesting experiment for them to try to shove a dynamic driver and BA driver together into a full-size headphone. This seems like a much more coherent and successful direction for them though
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Final Audio Pro Edition
    Frequency Response
    miniDSP EARS (SBAF Comp)
    upload_2021-4-8_20-3-46.png


    Final Audio D8000 Pro Edition
    Frequency Response
    Flate Plate Coupler (SBAF Comp)
    upload_2021-4-8_20-10-5.png

    I could not believe this, so I checked again - and again. The flat plate coupler because of its nature tends to seat the pads more evenly and is a bit more immune to tiny placement irregularities by humans, therefore I prefer to use this measurement as the standard for determining channel matching. This is spectacular - especially for orthos!

    Final Audio is not Fing around. Basically, they are telling all other high-end ortho headphone manufacturers: you suck. I'm really coming around to thinking these are worth their price. Regardless if you like the sound or not, the craftsmanship and attention to detail are there. One doesn't get this kind of result without being super anal retentive on manufacturing processes, uniformity of traces, tension of diaphragm, etc. I'm not going to mention any names, but Final Audio makes other ortho manufacturers look like amateurs. I love this old school Japanese spirit.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 6:19 PM
  4. Vtory

    Vtory Illogical Spock

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    Now we have three (plus one) $$$ orthos Marv have ever enthusiastically raved: RAD-0, Susvara, and newly D8k pro. Maybe unicorn LCD4 sleeping somewhere in the LA TSAV's inventory, too..
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Final Audio D8000 Pro Edition
    CSDs
    FPC D8000 Pro L.jpg
    FPC D8000 Pro R.jpg
     
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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I apologize for being senile and behind the times. I'm not Jude so I don't get the latest and greatest but instead end up being late to the party, sometimes years late. I simply call shit when I happen on it - in the present - and don't give two shits if I am behind the times - most especially for the high-end stuff where 30-50% of it turns out to be hot craptastic overpriced garbage. I don't feel a need to get to shit first before anything else. That's Jude's job. I've been around way too long to think that the latest and greatest will be the best. There is a reason why the Golden Schlong awards have a longevity award and why I advise people to look at how long people actually hold on to their gear. If gear is good, being a few years late can't hurt anyone.

    There used to be at time, around Changstar, where we had plenty of high-rollers sending gear to me for measurements. This still happens, but not as often on SBAF. Most of the guys who have been around are kind of jaded. Also, gear is better now with expensive gear not being pieces of shit as often, so there is less incentive for someone to send me something so we can laugh at it. ASR, being a younger forum, actually has more of this spirit with their members sending Amir all sorts of gear.

    But yes, you are technically correct. The D8000 which I suppose came before the D8000 Pro years ago, was the one which brought us out of the ortho dark ages. For recognizing and pointing out this technicality, I award you the Intelligence Medal:

    [​IMG]

    This one is special - because no "ortho-wall" and no ripples, despite it using a tensioned driver. While it's arguable how much these ortho walls are audible (https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/ortho-wall-for-lack-of-a-better-term.2119/), we know that excess ripples = lack of driver control / "floppy" = masking of microdetail. Maybe? It's like what @rhythmdevils said, some people can hear this, some won't can hear it and won't mind it, and others just won't hear it.

    Take a look at these overheads with floor set to -48db (12db lower than usual) and time extended to 5ms. We are are looking for are the streaks that to from top to bottom from 2kHz upward.

    Final Audio D8000 Pro Edition
    Overhead CSD -48db floor to 5ms
    FPC D8000 Pro L.jpg

    HFM Susvara
    Overhead CSD -48db floor to 5ms
    FPC Susvara L.jpg

    Audeze LCD3
    Overhead CSD -48db floor to 5ms FPC LCD3 L.jpg

    Audeze LCD2C
    Overhead CSD -48db floor to 5ms
    LCD2C L #2.jpg

    Verum 1.0
    Overhead CSD -48db floor to 5ms
    Verum L.jpg
     
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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 8:04 PM
  7. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    What do you think of the microdetail/plankton purr1n, is it at least Clear level?
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The metal mesh also serves to hold the magnets in place. MrSpeakers does something similar with this vortex tunnel arrays or whatever he calls them. Audeze and HiFiMan use slits / grill for the magnets and zig-zag traces. I can be argued that only a metal mesh is able to support a circular magnet array / circular traces.

    I would also appear that Final uses some strategic damping in the center with a special low-medium density hard foam. I don't know if they use any damping in the back (not gonna open because these are not mine).
    PXL_20210409_022319836.jpg
     
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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 8:00 PM
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    LOL. You made me pull out Eagles Hotel California from Hell Freezes Over just to be extra sure (so sick of that track - but in any event, the Big Lebowski made me realize how much I hate Eagles).

    This is kind of tricky because the 10kHz peak of the D8000 will give it a macro-detail advantage. Both Clear and the D8000 Pro are very good at transients, so let's call it a wash there, with maybe the nature of transients being slightly different. What I do is examine to the guitar work at the beginning of the track and listen for the decays. The longer I can hear the decays and the more I can make out the frequency modulations during the decay, the higher I give the plankton score. In this sense, the D8000 Pro actually outclasses the Clear - quite easily I must say. I think it's definitely on HD800 / Utopia level, which is a HUGE achievement. I still think Utopia edges it out in retrieval of low level information in the mids, and the HD800 edges it out in the highs, but overall it's there in between them. It should be noted that the OG Abyss AB1266 is easily outclassed by both TOTL dynamics HD800 / Utopia with respect to plankton (a very contrary opinion held since Changstar days, but this doesn't take away from the immense strengths of the AB1266). This is with Gungnir MB as the DAC and my EC 45 Studio as the headamp.

    One thing I did notice is that the Clear is cleaner, has a bit less haze in the midrange, than the D8000 Pro. This is a different aspect from microdetail, but I thought I should mention it (would be curious on distortion since some orthos do have a bump in midrange distortion). Another thing I should mention is that the D8000 Pro definitely sounds like it has "classic" planar transients, as opposed to HFM HEK or Susvara which tries to achieve almost e-stat like transients. I'm betting they are not chasing nano diaphragms for a reason = better reliability, like reliable for the next 50 years, instead of drivers failing 5 times or degrading so then end up sounding like shit.

    But really, at the end of the day, if plankton sucks, I won't seek out the headphone on my main HP setup on a nightly basis. It's just that plankton never really crossed my mind. The D8000 Pro does it shit nonchalantly, and with that kind of bass, quality bass, I'm listening to stuff like Aretha Franklin, Dusty Springfield, and of course Laurel Hill's one real album. I lament that Ms. Hill never got much attention while the likes of Rihanna did - I guess those were pre-social media days.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 8:49 PM
  10. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    (Shitpost): Liked for the hate Eagles/like Lauren Hill parts. The other observations too, of course.
     
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  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I don't have enough of these for orthos to say much, but for future reference to see if any patterns emerge.

    There's a bit of leading edge on the attack at all frequencies, particularly at 1kHz. The burst at 4.8kHz does take a cycle or two to ramp up - I don't see anything wrong here. Nothing too interesting with the decays other than at 4.8kHz after an initial drop, it lingers a bit for 2 cycles before finally falling. 1.5kHz decay looks to drop quickly, both initially and towards the end.

    Final Audio D8000 Pro
    Burst Attack and Decay Envelope
    B1696 D8000 Pro.wav_burst.jpg

    LCD2C here for comparison
    B1696 LCD2C.wav_burst.jpg
     
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  12. Pancakes

    Pancakes Facebook Friend

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    I wonder if the magnet structures are the cause of ortho walls. A traditional planar has multiple magnets across its membrane whereas the Final just has a center magnet and an outer magnet. Perhaps there's uneven damping in a traditional planar due to free flow of air between the magnets and more resistance/air pressure between the diaphragm and magnets. Theoretically (if this was the case) double sided magnet planars would exhibit more of this behavior vs single sided.

    Some more thought on this...the sawtooth pattern in planar FR may be a product of some mathematical relationship between magnet width, space between magnets and, diaphragm area and tension. I realize I'm probably reaching but since I haven't seen a better explanation, why not.
     
  13. JeremiahS

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    When I talk to my local brick and mortar shop that also distributes Final gears about potential audition (I want to compare them with Susvara) he talk about serious potential problem where the driver will rumble and hit the housing if we play bass heavy music at loud enough volume. Do you ever come experience this @purr1n during testing?
     
  14. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    That's a common complaint about the D8000 and the reason why the D8000 Pro was released, it's a "higher volume, studio oriented" version of the D8000.
     
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  15. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I've hit excursion limits during testing for < 35Hz. Let's say only 1 or 2db more than the Focals (Utopia, Elex, etc.) which are known for this.

    No issues with music though - of course this depends upon what you listen to and how loud and how much you love bass EQ. I mean, there have been stories of folks smoking their Magnis, using Loki, and low Z planars.

    Susvara and HEK have a ton of surface area. Same with Audeze. The problem with larger surface area is less treble extension or f'kery in the upper mids and lower highs. Tradeoffs

    Will dump the distortion measurements tonight so we can get an idea. The top line 102db distortion measurement is right at the cusp.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021 at 9:01 AM
  16. ogodei

    ogodei Headphone Heaven Gatekeeper

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    I was staying away in case you were going to rain on my parade but to read the thread and then see this level of praise...

    The thing to stress is your second point above: While the quality level may be there (and I'm not sure I agree these are at Utopia level), they are very different sounding from HD800 or Utopia. A darker, heftier solid presentation v the ethereal qualities you can coax out of 800/Utopia & their top ends. They're much more agreeable to a variety of amps as well, definitely killing it in the bass with tubes. Almost as good as HE-6

    If you love estats or the HEK you'll need to change your state of mind to fully enjoy these.

    I can get my right cup to rattle at massive volumes with bass test tracks, no issues at reasonable levels.
     
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  17. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    damn those are some serious traces. Reminds me of a magnetic field configuration for a fusion reactor I saw somewhere.
     
  18. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Here they are at work:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Beautiful...
     
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  19. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Doesn't seem to be the case with Fostex T50RP Mk3 (bar magnets). From the peaks at 4k and above there's 35-45 dB down to the floor but those ridges don't persist beyond 2 ms even if I drop the floor another 5 dB (or try to strengthen the ridges by tweaking window & rise-time settings):

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Here are they working on the D8000:
    [​IMG]

    They even built custom jigs to assemble the headphones and achieve consistency:
    http://6moons.com/industryfeatures/munich2017/9.html
    [​IMG]

    Don't be put off by the 6moons link, it contains interesting info about it.
    Final's original plan was to release models from 300€ to 5000€ and nuke planar market, so we can expect more Final headphones with this tech at lower price points and one model above the D8000 Pro.

    This article also contains more info about the design and their collaborators:
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=https://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/201710/19/42379.html

    In the design were involved: NH Lab (Heitaro Nakajima, one of the inventors of the CD that worked at Sony), and Yamaha's technical team, which provided Final with the resources and equipment needed to develop the headphones.
    Final is also the sister company of Molex (one of the largest connector manufacturers), they are flush with money and can afford those kind of expenses.

    As I said earlier, it's lightyears ahead of what Audeze/Hifiman/etc are doing, not even funny.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021 at 3:18 PM

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