General Speaker Advice and Recommendations

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by shotgunshane, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Which device can you use to measure the draw? I'd be curious what my stuff pulls all together and separately in watts and amps...
     
  2. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Cheap Amazon device

    https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00K7VMJYM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    I checked it with some light bulbs that seemed right on, and with a space heater rated 1500w that measured about 1450 - not sure if the measurement or the heater itself - or both - were off, but I think it is accurate enough for my purposes.

    Even though it is advertised to continuously monitor usage, I would not leave it plugged in all the time though.
     
  3. winders

    winders Know-it-all boomer, prob racist

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  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Nah that don't concern me much. In fact, the ScanSpeak Revelators usually have some crazy H2 going on at 1 kHz which IMO might be harder to deal with:
    https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/scan-speak/scanspeak-18m4631t00

    EDIT: The reason distortion does not concern me about 2 kHz and above is that these drivers should not be crossed above 1.5 kHz. And in fact may require a notch filter around the cone break frequencies. It's not that hard to do. The Tango solution was really nice in that regard.

    That said, the ScanSpeak performance below 1 kHz blows the RS180 out of the water. LOL! Thanks!

    It's not like I've not heard anything out there and masturbate to datasheets all the time mang.

    I've heard stuff and done stuff. And while I've found that datasheets don't tell you everything, I've also found that good datasheet performance seems to correlate highly with actual performance (unless someone fucked up the implementation). In fact, pretty much every suggestion you have thrown comes hand in hand with great datasheet/measurement performance. I can guarantee you that SB, Peerless and Scanspeak do not have shit specs.
    1. The P830875 looks really good. I actually designed something with it a while ago, but ultimately abandoned the project when the RS180 seemed like was going to do better. I can't remember what it was, but I will dig the design again. The Peerless is also more expensive and hard to find in the US.
    2. The pro HW162 has 3 dB more sensitivity than the RS180-8 (comparing that one instead of the RS180-4 because they have more similar specs). But optimal F3 is about 53 Hz ported. Maybe more of a large monitor material than tower.
    3. The Satori is better than the above in almost every sense. Like the Scanspeak, it may exhibit highish H2 at 1 kHz, but like a shit ton more. Between $148 and $212, I would just get the Scanspeak to be honest.
    This is IMO pretty fruitful though. I'm leaning again into Scanspeak given distortion numbers. And again, avoid the bullshit. Datasheet performance does not have negative correlation with reality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  5. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    @ultrabike Maybe this one is worth checking?
    https://www.parts-express.com/aura-ns6-255-8a-6-paper-cone-neodymium-magnet-woofer--299-030
    https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/299-030-factory-buyouts-ns6-255-8a-specifications.pdf

    It was discontinued some years ago, but can be bought for less than $25 each used.
    Underhung motor with full neodymium radial magnets, has some crazy reviews out there, same company that made that drool worthy NRT-18 driver used in Wilson's XS subwoofer.
    They only downside seems to be that is discontinued and fs not as low as other designs (55hz), but 8 ohm 91db sensitivity and breakup starts at 5khz, it could be a killer midrange in a 3 way speaker.
     
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  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    BTW, for a 3 way design using a midrange, I'm looking at the RS125-4 from that same site @briskly provided, and it's pretty freaking awesome distortion wise. Even against Scanspeak!

    Edit: Qms is lower tho. Not so nice FR on all the midrange. Meh.
     
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Shit! That driver seems awesome. Need to read more.
     
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  8. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    The only speakers I've seen/heard that (i think...) used that driver were from Green Mountain Audio, the Europa and the Rio. The Europa from ca. 2000 did sound really great.
     
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  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    So I took a look at it. The specs say it's 91 dB sensitivity, but that only @ 1 kHz and above. Below that drops quite a bit. At 300 Hz we are looking at 86 or so dB. This is expected. It's a 6" woofer. Qms is pretty high. Distortion looks good and the FR is pretty smooth. No idea about FR at different angles. It may require a larger box. Even larger than what Revelators call for, and some complain about the Revelators needing a large box. Nothing is ever perfect.

    Something that looks similarish is the ND140-4. That has a Qms of about 5 point something (which seems sexy) and can go 30 Hz ported on a more 30 something litter box more or less. I think I tried modeling crap with it, but I can't remember why I didn't check things out more. Will dig again. At 300 Hz that one also hits about 86 dB and does not slant up which may help in not having to add a "contour" deal in the crossover given baffle.
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I'm now wondering about these Qms numbers. That Aurasound reported something like 10 or so. But then again the FR is not like flat. It tends to be tilted. A number of about 5 seems to be what most every other reference woofer reports while still having a smooth and easy FR in the entire useful passband.

    I also wonder if the Revelator is something like the HD600 of woofers. It's not like super new or anything, and it still looking awesome to this date.
     
  11. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Wasn't that the Vifa C17? ;)
    But yes, Revelators seem to be butter smooth and easy to work with, high performance no nonsense drivers.

    By the way, I can't completely understand/interpret Scanspeak frequency response charts, all of them look like roller coasters, like "why would they publish this?", but then, searching 3rd party measurements, all of them are super smooth, extended and flat. It usually happens backwards, with manufacturers providing the good looking measurements and 3rd partys showing the nastiness.
     
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  12. maverickronin

    maverickronin Friend

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    So my original plan of making something simple based off of @ultrabike's USM-2 continues to grow more and more over the top in my mind.

    I'm thinking about cast aluminum enclosures for thin and stiff walls in order to make the most of the limited space I have to place them in.

    Anyone DIYed anything that crazy before?
     
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  13. artur9

    artur9 Rando

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    I used this Panamax with trigger for a while. My pre-pro has 4 triggers with configurable delay so that might also be a direction to look.
     
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  14. briskly

    briskly Friend

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    I was under the impression that you were reluctant to choose such a low x-over point. Of course, notching the breakup frequencies does nothing for that distortion. That's in the cone/motor.

    The midrange problem with the Scan-Speak and Satori drivers is the edge resonance from the surround. It's especially obvious in the Satori since the rest of the behavior is so nice. I also know that SB addressed that issue on the MR16P midrange; you can identify it by the ring of glue on the back of the cone. AFAIK no solution was implemented in the other Satori cones.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Never worked with cast aluminum mang. That's why I went the 0.5" MDF way. However, you can try even thinner MDF (like 0.325" or something like that) and use 0.5" MDF along the joints to bind things and provide some bracing.

    Nope. It was the other way around. I actually like low xover points like shit loads more. I like good off-axis performance. I was just dyslexic about it... saying the opposite of what I meant to say in my previous post. Happens more often than I like, but such is life.

    The MR16P just became interesting again. Any distortion measurements and stuff? It still not much cheaper than the 7" Revelator IMO tho.
     
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @Priidik, it was not the Peerless 830875 I tried. It was the 830855. And it did very good on a 4 liter cabinet. More of a mid size monitor going down flat to 50 Hz.

    I will check things out with the 830875. But so far that Revelator is crazy good. Learning about this Vifa C17 deal also.
     
  17. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Hobby casting short-ish thick items isn't too bad. Thin walls however present several additional challenges, and casting integrity becomes very important (and also difficult). Regular play sand might not have enough inherent strength either when you get to larger sizes. Adding "air" vents may also be required. It's not impossible, but thin-wall cabinets would not be an ideal starting point for this particular rabbit hole
     
  18. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Yeah, for small monitor use a Revelator MW is hard to beat, regardless of price.
    It's sad that the 8 ohm midrange version was not available in time I sourced my 3-way drivers.
    Vifa C17 is supposedly excellent in many things, although it lacks modern motor tech,
    so it's likely not that good in bass and high spl.

    For defeating beaming and cone breakup harshness I think polypropylene cones do really well.
    The mineral filled pp is one of the best for this (most famous use in Harbeth mid).
    For a small monitor I have considered using this.

    The way Dayton alu is tamed in cone breakups looks to be through lossy and stiff membrane.
    Additionally, maybe variable thickness cone, all of which while it gives good distortion profile
    is perhaps robbing it from being the last bit effortless in nuances.
    The 2. harmonic peak from ScanSpeak and SBA is from soft membrane playing its' own thing with edge of the membrane, as @briskly mentioned.
    You don't see this in Seas or Morel which use higher loss membranes with or without combination with alu or titanium vc former that adds damping. It seems to be a case of balancing act and playing around compromises.
    Accuton ceramics seem to undercut this, but daat £$€.

    It wasn't my intention to shit on any of the drivers, they are all great pieces of kit, but we are here to split hairs, haha.
    A competent design effort with matching tweeter and right xo would result in a good sounding speaker with any of those.
     
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  19. maverickronin

    maverickronin Friend

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    For space reasons, I'm hoping I can make an enclosure that's not any wider than the frame of the driver itself, keeping the walls thin until it's out past the magnet to give it breathing room. With MDF or something else (Baltic Birch ply?) I'd probably need two layers of quarter inch with the inner layer cutout and beveled around the driver.

    This is just going to be a set of desktop mini monitors so hopefully it will be more doable. Not planning on casting a giant floorstander.

    Also, how thin is too thin? I was thinking 10mm thick walls scalloped down to 5 around the driver. That sound achievable? any tips or tricks?
     
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  20. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @maverickronin, you could use 0.5" MDF for the baffle. And then use 0.25" MDF for the rest of the box. Then use reinforcements on all corners of the box. In fact, you will likely need such reinforcements not just to give the box strength but also to help with screwing the front baffle or the back of the box, depending on where you choose to have access.

    I chose the front and ended up adding reinforcement there more to easily attach the baffle with screws.

    The reason to use 0.5" MDF only for the front baffle is to facilitate driver placement. Using 0.25" MDF everywhere else should work IMO as long as you put some square or wedge reinforcements on the corners.
     
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