Discussion in 'Portable and Other Gear Measurements' started by atomicbob, Jan 6, 2019.
Hey @atomicbob is the input impedance for Liquid Platinum at 48K Ohms for balanced input or SE?
So half for SE at 24k?
Never Assume. You know the rest. To be clear I prepared the following pseudo schematic to indicate what I measured with a Fluke 189 DMM:
More precise Balanced measurements (Left Channel):
45.61K between pins 3 and 1
45.69K between pins 2 and 1
91.30K between pins 2 and 3
More precise Unbalanced measurements (Left Channel):
445.3K between Center and Shield
Thats interesting. The Jotunheim which doesn't use a phase splitter has SE input impedance at half that of balanced. Maybe the phase splitting circuit is whats causing the extraordinarily high input impedance?
I have a set of actives at 10kOhm ZIn with a set of 10m balanced interconnects, using digital attenuation form DAC1541.
I used this calculator from DACT: www.dact.com/html/ac_calculator.html and modeled the scenario using a 10k attenuator, with the shield+conductor capacitance data for the interconnects I'm using. This is the result:
Unless I'm missing something, even at small levels of attenuation I shouldn't really be seeing much in the way of treble rolloff. Given that I would attenuate 20-50dB I should be in the clear using a GoldPoint right after the DAC. Am I missing something here?
With the Goldpoint in the middle, your speakers will now see the Zout from that preamp, which is now variable because it’s a variable passive resistor. So the Zout from the Goldpoint will change depending on the volume level, and is calculated based on the Zout from the DAC. To avoid issues, you want the lowest output from the DAC so that, even though the Zout your speakers will see from the Goldpoint will vary, it won’t get high enough to cause problems at all/most attenuation levels.
Without getting into the math, with a passive preamp in the middle, the rule of thumb I’ve read is 100:1 ratio of the two ends (ignoring the preamp in the middle). In other words, 100:1 ratio between your source and your power amp. The is will give you relatively low output impedance from the passive preamp at almost all attenuation levels.
Your DAC has balanced Zout of 100ohms. Your speakers are Zin of 10k ohms. That’s 100:1. You should be good.
100 ohm Zout from a DAC is nice and low, and 10-20k Zin is pretty typical for an amp. If that combo doesn’t work with a passive preamp then it would be pretty darn limited it what it would work with.
Cool, just so long as I'm not off in the weeds on this thinking .
OK, in some consultation with GoldPoint it looks like I'm kinda on the iffy edge of the use case with my scenario with common ground connections impacting total capacitance. I could get more creative but the price for that starts getting to $1500+ USD and is a bit kludgy feeling to me.
That said, Arn Roatcap was incredibly helpful, and though an enthusiastic salesman, he was forthright and didn't try to smooth any rough facts over to land the sale. I can highly recommend dealing with him.
Then as it happens, I stumbled on a lightly used SPL 2Control at Guitar Center for 400 bucks which is a steal, so I'm gonna give that a whirl. It seems to get decent reviews and at that price should be nicely resell-able if it sucks or I get upgradeitits. It pretty much does exactly what I want barring the headphone outs which I don't need.
I can get a GOLDPOINT SA2X for a fair price. This one has two inputs. Was wondering, can I route one XLR source and one single ended source over RCA>XLR cable, and switch between sources over the goldpoint?
As in, can I volume control a single ended source? Thanks for any tips. Would be an ideal solution to my current set-up for sure...
I take a SE in to my SA2X-O into my Genelecs no problem. Attenuation works fine. Make sure your amp/monitors can handle SE over XLR.
Excellent, thank you
Does this mean that passive preamps may be less than ideal with a balanced source utilizing the traditional 600 ohm output impedance, like a Schiit DAC? Zout of 600 ohmz. Power amp Zin of 10k ohms. 16.66:1 ratio.
600ohms Zout? I think it’s usually 75ohm output impedance for all their DACs, from either SE or Balanced. Where are you seeing the 600ohms?
I think zonto is referring to the Schiit DACs capable of doing a 600ohm load. I had the same concerns zonto had when I purchased a Goldpoint with Convert-2 and Vidars. Here's what Goldpoint says:
The Goldpoint I have listed for sale is the standard 10K.
Still not following - maybe I’m being thick today or missed something in the past with Schiit DACs.
At any rate, I believe the stepper in Schiit’s own preamps is 10k, and since they offer a passive mode in all of them, I’m going to assume they’re a good match impedance-wise between their DACs and their power amps.
All Schiit DACs are specified for Output Impedance of 75 ohms.
A stepped attenuator with a 10K Input Impedance is a ratio of 133:1 for a 75 R OI.
This exceeds the rule-of-thumb for 100:1 by a considerable margin. Stop worrying and enjoy more music.
Apologies all for the brain fart, and thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of the output impedance from the balanced outputs of the Freya +/S which is 600 ohms.
Hello, I'm wondering if you'de be kind enough to share any thoughts. I have the Convert 2 (recording studio) and have been living with using its potentiometer trim as a main volume knob feeding my amp & speakers. I've tried a few different Passive Monitoring solutions lately. Among them, the Coleman M3.
The thing is, although there's "IS" appreciable improved Channel balancing (particularly at very low listening levels)...as well as some seemingly appreciable "top end openess improvement" in running the Convert 2 in relay bypass into the Monitor Controller...
I'm also noticing that :
ALL -22 db of output that the Convert sends out when its potentiometer is bypassed.... is simply Not totally available in what is "supposed to be" a simple Passive controller at its higher volume levels. This "to my ears" results in simply put, less balls or low mid & bottom end impact.
IE; 12-1 o'clock output from the Convert 2 potentiometer is significantly louder than 12-1 o'clock output from the few Passive designs I've tried.
Bottom line, I've been living with using the Convert 2 output potentiometer as a main volume knob as In my case, I need the available output db, (1-2 o'clock at most typically) due to an amp that's not very powerful.
The downside is not being able to do speaker switching or input switching like a monitor controller brings.
Much appreciate any thought's you might have in that you also have the Convert 2 and coleman M3.
Suffice it say, I'm now considering trying the Goldpoint and hopefully it wouldn't exhibit this issue I've been finding.
@Chris david If you have your Coleman all the way clockwise, it shouldn't be attenuating at all (meaning you have all the available volume on tap). Clock positions are almost certainly going to be different. I have no idea what's in the Coleman, but at 47 steps it could be 1.5dB per step.
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