Hifiman Sundara

I consider the Sundara low-fi. HEK and Ananda could possibly be considered mid-fi at best.
HE-6 is a very different ballgame, totally unlike the crap new-HFM has put out in the last couple years.

 

Loaner impression

I have no personal hatred toward this headphone. But feel very mixed when I found more time was spent on handling usps issues rather than enjoying this loaner unit... Oh well.

Anyway, here are my stream of consciousness by now:

• Ergonomics - OK. When just delivered, ear-pads were placed a little strangely (the thickest parts look downward..), which made me feel uncomfortable. After rotating them by 90 deg, everything became fine. Sundara is lightweight at 380g (for this category of headphones) and also easy to grab due to its structure. This was particularly convenient when frequent on-and-off uses were needed (e.g., office or lab). But didn't like its clamping and lack of ear cup swivel. I still prefer Sundara to Senn 6-series (comfort-wise). But will take Elex over Sundara by a small margin, and take LCD2C by a large margin.

• Sound - Mostly agree with others' impressions such as cskippy's, skem's, and ufopls2's (no particular order though) to some degree. In short the combination of decent but not endgame-ish bass, HFM midrange (in a good way), and somewhat over-sharpened treble. One noticeable point is that Sundara was extremely pleasing when connected to (too) warm and dull upstream gears (some may call these low-fi gears lol). I always feel muted with cirrus-logic dac chips (e.g. apple hp-outs). With Sundara, all the musics were much more enjoyable and acceptable - Other hifi headphones such as senn or focal often fail to do so. I dare to say, conditioned by apple i-devices (iphone, ipad, ..) without dedicated amps, Sundara might be the best open over-ear headphone among I've ever heard in terms of overall satisfaction and tonal/technical balance. As an extension, if anybody feels his/her amps and dacs were too boring and had no excitements, Sundara can be a good choice.

• Conclusion - With such ergonomic and sonic characteristics, I regard Sundara as a good work headphone when working environment is relatively quiet and does not require isolation. Or can be a good gift for friends IRL and families who are never willing to dump stupid money on amps or dacs but still want detail-ish/technical-ish sound (Many of my colleagues are so!).

I will do some more experiments (regarding gear-matching and genre-matching) before sending this to the next person.

Thanks for the loaner opportunity!

 

I should have posted this after I had the loaner, but I was kind of busy moving. I had it in Google Drive, just never posted and my mind was wiped after moving as well as being completely worn out.


Source gear:
Raspy Pi -> HiFiBerry Digi+ -> Bifrost 4490 -> Dynalo
Other headphones: Senn. HD650, Fostex T50 (modded)

Other caveats: I listen to mostly rock/popp/alterternative, a touch of jazz, and not much classical. I mainly look for good details and one that is not too clinical, and I also a slightly warm signature.


Intro:
This headphone had a lot of promise. We all should be aware of the HiFiMan story and rise of the HE-500’s and their clear nature with good lows and smooth highs, as well as the HE-6’s. I came to the party late in the game hearing HE-1000’s as my first pair of HiFiMan open planars. Plenty of details, but the low end sounded soft and rounded. I still preferred the immediacy and instrument separation that the HE-500’s brought, even if it was slightly rolled of on that extreme top end.

Eventually to get some more “air” out of the HE-500’s, out comes the HE-560 to replace them. Why not 550? Who knows? Either way, the end result was a more steely sounding headphone that was sometimes fatiguing, a bit too much in the high-mids, and missing some low end punch.

So now, the Sundara is to help fill that gap between the newer HE-560’s (now on ver.2), and the HE-400. It seems they are now following other companies in the industry and just using product names rather than model numbers.

Overall, I would give these Sundara’s a pass. I am not like Tyll and would put them on my WOF, as I think they are more limiting, but might very well please some types...mosty those maybe that have some lower end Grado’s and want to upgrade to planars, but we will get ot that in a minute.


Comfort:
Much has been said about this headband. Yes, the cups do not swivel and are in a fixed frame. With the circular cups, it not ideal for all head types. I think it is mostly a cost cutting measure by HiFiMan, and the build quality of the headband shows. The adjustment piece looks and feels cheap and can actually have some lateral movement (front to back). They seem to stay in the locked adjustment, but that is about all I can say.

Due to the headband, it is a little difficult to get a good seal. The cups are memory foam with fabric on the facing side, pleather on the outer side. Weight is decent and lightweight, but don’t always feel super secure on your head.

Next, thank you HiFiMan for getting rid of those tiny coax connectors. Just straight 2.5mm jacks on each driver to a Y-split. The other end of the connector is a right angle 2.5mm, not the most ideal, but replacements are easy to find if you want something to suit or to run balanced.


Sound:
Bass - There, but rounded and not quite dynamic. And when I say rounded, I read in another review that it is kind of one note bass, and I would quite agree. It is not blooming, just really soft. It is certainly more there than HE-560’s for sure, just don’t expect larger than life kick drum sounds.

Mids - Like most planars, very smooth and resolving. However, kind of recessed. It seems like there is a drop between the lows and mids that allows male vocals to sound softer in the mix and missing some presence.

Highs - Very detailed, open, airy, and smooth. This is about the best part of these headphones. I don’t usually talk about reverb trails and tiny details, but these are totally there. As far as resolution, they put my HD650’s (with the Senn. veil) to shame.

Soundstage - Surprisingly flat. Sundara’s more remind me of HD600’s rather than HD650’s. The Sundara’s have good imaging in the center, but L and R, just sound L and R. It is not an enveloping soundstage. You know something is off when my modified Fostex T-X0’s have a more open soundstage.


Conclusion:
Overall, these can sound kind of thin, congested, and lacking macrodynamics on poorly recorded tracks. Heavily dynamically squashed tracks (loudness wars tracks), sound downright small and strained.

However, the Sundara’s do excel at well recorded music. Jazz, classical, bluegrass, Americana, and other well produced stuff, was absolutely stunning! I want to make sure I stress they had great details, layering, and air. There was clarity and times seemed like windows for your ears as if nothing was in your way between you and the music. This is why I think Tyll has them on his WOF and why HiFiMan was happy enough with these for consumption and their price tag. This is also why I think they suit the Grado fans, but in a planar that has better layering.

 

Cool review, many thanks!

 

So, I've been looking to get back into the Planar world, and, if I didn't read past the first page, I would have thought this was a slam dunk.

But, the further I got down, the more I started thinking "Should I just not bother and get a pair of HE560s (or HE500s) that I could mod to high hell or just find a good price on a LCD-2c?"

I'm leaning towards not bothering.

 

Loaner Impressions:

First off, most members impressions and reviews have covered the vast majority of how I hear and handle this headphone. I decided to try out the Sundara for the opportunity to hear what HFM was currency offering for the entry-level headphone, and to see how it compares to my LFF modded HE-5LE. My observations will only relate to this comparison.

Gear used: Eitr - ModiMB > MCTH+LPS > Code-5LE / Sundara

- Sundara build quality is lacking IMHO. Sure, it looks decent and is light-weight, but the fit & finish diminish significantly once in-hand. The thin metal, rough edges and lack of adjustability is disappointing as this is supposed to be an evolution of what HFM has offered.

Aside: Now, the OG headband and chassis of my 5LE isn't great either. It's heavy and offers similar lack of adjustability, but it at least has a perceived level of effort to provide a quality product (leather, better finished metal and weight). And for all this, it still gets a "pass" from me, because it nearly 8 fracking years old.
​

- Stock cable is shit; flimsy rubber tubing that wants to snag on everything. Not acceptable for a $499 list price.

- Overall tonality sounds slightly U-shaped compared to the Code5LE. Where my 5LE sounds dead-flat from the bass all the way through the mid treble with a touch more energy up top, the Sundara has a subtle over-emphasis in the bass and above the mid-treble; mids sounding ever-slightly recessed. Bass quality is okay, with a decent amount of texture and delineation. Where I might hear 5-6 gradations in a track with the 5LE; Sundara I hear 2-3. Agreed with others that the bass has a slightly rounder presentation, hitting softer. The treble is slightly sharp relative to the rest of it's tonality, with an energy that becomes fatiguing after considerable use. Brighter sounding chains may not handle this well. My Code5LE has a touch of treble zing, but not to this extent and much more refined.

- Soundstage is open and airy, aided by the treble zing. I personally love a wide-open can like this, with he ability to hear ambient noise around you, knowing that very little is impeding the sound. If you need isolation, look elsewhere.

- There's nothing really engaging about the Sundara. It sounds decent, albeit with what I've mentioned on it's tonality. It resolves well, but lacks the detail retrieval of the 5LE and has a lighter/softer flair to it's sound; notes carry a little less weight, more analytical. I recall Marv mentioning how Julie perceived the sound of the newer thin-membrane planars and how there's less realism, or the sound ends up being less musical. IMO the same applies here.

So far, Tl/DR : Ok/Good sound, but a touch forgettable.

 

Loaner Impressions:

For the five or so days I used the Sundara I got to the” use to them” state. Using them for music/video games and other stuff, they became the daily driver for the time.

I did appreciate the light weight and the appropriate clamping force on my noggin, but found the pads just a bit stiff to where I needed to take them off from time to time. Temperature, due to the mesh fabric, was Goldelox.. not too hot and not too cold. Just right.

I thought the planer sound was very planner in the base(bass) region. Extended, flat but a tad bit boring. The highs were not offensive, but not exciting, with mids a bit recessed, not to a fault though, compared to the base and treble. Imaging and placement could have been better in music, but did well with my FPS video games.

Would I buy them? Yes, if I needed a set of new headphones, were discounted and came with a better cable(s).

Overall score: Not bad

 

I'd lean to the same thing, I think.

 

Anyone know if the Beyer T1 would be an upgrade to Sundaras? I enjoy Sundaras quite a bit, just wondering.

 

Start here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/new-members-introduce-yourself.17/

Then come back and tell us about your preferences and current setup.

 

I've not heard the Sundaras but am sort of acquainted with the HFM house sound. I own Beyer DT880s that don't bother me too much (because I don't listen at high volumes and my ears might have gotten killed by one stupid concert back in 2015): the T1 seemed even sharper to me than the DT880 does during a demo not too long ago, and while I do think HFM cans are somewhat sibilant at times (HEKv2, Susvara specifically), the T1 just rips right through them.

I'd say the T1 was technically competent, in the same league as the original HD800 (which I've had at home long enough to know well enough), but you're either going to have to EQ the spike down or use physical mods if it ends up bothering you.

EDIT: Realised I was unclear. To elaborate I'm saying that while I've not directly A/Bed them the T1 is a very technically competent pair of cans in terms of ability to convey textures, dynamism, and layering, roughly comparable to the Senns (not in soundstaging though, it was decent but far from as large as the HD800), but the FR is offensive even to my ears so I'm warning you away )

ROFL, this too

 

The simple answer is 'yes.'
I'm assuming T1 betters the T70.
I sold my Sundaras because they fell FAR behind my T70 in detail & clarity. The Sundaras are superior in actually having sub-bass. They straddle bright but forgiving(polite dynamics.)

If you want the HFM sound and have a T1 budget grab an Edition XX or higher. I took in the XX last week and the flaws haven't revealed themselves yet. It has the same 'bright but polite' thing that the Sundara has without glossing over detail, it's the kind of sound I like.

HFM is a good brand to transition down from Beyer's suicide peak (treble) without feeling that you've taken all the sparkle away.

 

Since there is no information available about your upstream gear or the type of music you listen to, that is impossible to answer. Which kind of gives away the game. The T1 (and i've only heard v.1 if I am not mistaken) as Lyer25 said above is far more technically capable than the Sundara, but my experience with the Sundara is that it is going to be less picky about upstream gear and recording quality/type of music than the T1. The Sundara is going to sound pretty similar regardless of those factors (up to a point, of course and assuming enough power) but if you are willing to match dac and especially amp to synergize with it, the T1 will scale far more than the Sundara. Whether your existing gear will suit the T1 or not remains a mystery of course. If you listen to death metal through an Invicta/ GSX2, for instance well... I think I would prefer the Sundara in that context, by some ways. Might even prefer no music at all.

 

This is a "better late than never" type of post. I know people aren't really talking about Sundara anymore, but a data point is a data point so whatever. To preface, these are my loaner tour impressions from last year Fall/Winter. The reason this is coming out now is because during that time I was in a really bad health situation dealing with some life threatening things. I didn't spend as much time listening as I wanted to, but I did hastily record some notes. I was in such bad shape at the time that I wasn't able to post them and then I later lost the notes and forgot about my loaner duties (sorry!). Well I recently stumbled on those notes and realized I never got around to posting, so here they are for posterity.

Build:
-Sundara doesn't feel very premium. They are lightweight and look nice, but they just don't inspire confidence. After the HE-400i quality control issues, I wish HFM would have really turned things around and considered design more. I don't think Sundara is the answer to that.
-Comfort is good, but the lack of swivel in the cups is annoying. I can see this being a problem for some. I have a fairly small/medium head so this works ok for me.

Sound:
-Bass doesn’t quite reach as low as LCD2C. Quality is good, but quantity feels a little lacking. I think LCD2C easily wins out.
-Less warm/lower mid emphasis compared to LCD2C, but more upper mids and quicker.
-Sundara feels thinner and more nimble than LCD2C in mids, not as liquid. I think LCD2C can be too laid back in this department while Sundara can sometimes feel to sterile. Overall, I like Sundara in mids more as it sounds more correct and has better timbre.
-Vocals less warm, but wider and more space compared to LCD2C. Sundara has a bigger stage.
-LCD2C is much more smooth and laid back, less visceral, Sundara could be a tad harsh in treble. I'm not treble sensitive, but on harsh recordings Sundara can make those noticeable.
-Sundara is a very "safe" sounding headphone. It doesn't really do anything displeasing. But it also doesn't really have a "wow" factor. Overally, I like the sound and don't have major complaints. I think LCD2C has more flaws and annoyances. But Sundara also doesn't do enough to really make me consider wanting to own it.

And comparing what I remember of Sundara to my current Verum One, I think the Verum is better all around. Verum is also a pretty "safe" sounding headphone too. Both don't really commit sins of commission. They both play nicely with all genres of music and neither are particularly amp sensitive. But I think Verum has more engagement and better tactile response. I always felt a bit bored when listening to Sundara, but I don't with the Verum. With both planars being at similar price points, I think Verum is the better buy.

 

A year later, I ended up bothering. Mostly because the HE4XX won me back. Especially after I modded it. The issues with the HE4XX became a lot more apparent after trying out the LCD-1.

Anyway, after getting it in, the Sundara is basically a vast improvement over the HE4XX. Might actually be my favorite Hifiman headphone in the "mid-tier" since the HE500.

At stock, the sound is a bit lighter, airier and a bit sharp at times. The mids remind me of the HE500, though not 100% as good. The detail and imagery make up for it. Even though the soundstage isn't very....wide, the depth is surprising. As people already said, the bass is a slow descent into -4db by the time you get to the subbass. There's some impact there, but it's more akin to the impact you'd find on a Audio-Technica headphone than a Hifiman headphone.

Now, the reason I said stock is because, quite frankly, my ass wasn't keeping this thing stock. Especially when the palipads were already falling about. I stuck Universe Pads on there, but I didn't like the sound as much. The bass stayed the same, some detail and soundstage was lost, and the treble became a bit sharper. Basically, the opposite of what happened with the HE4XX. What did help, however, was shelf-liner. With that shelf-liner, the treble retained it's detailed, airy sound, but the low treble's sharpness was curbed by quite a bit. Best part? It actually helped clear and bring up the subbass a bit. Shelf-liner took this from a "I like it, but..." to a "Huh, I actually love this headphone."

Since I don't have enough confidence in Hifiman pads, I ordered a set of Dekoni Hybrid Elite TH900 pads. Apparently, these pads retain the sound. I'll make another post once I can run those pads through their paces.

 

Sooooooooo...

I got the TH900 Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads came in Monday (a long with the V2 Modi Multi-bit chip that I installed.)

As far as sound goes, it's about 98% the same. The subbass extends a bit further and the imaging is a bit more precise. It's not a huge difference, and, honestly, I don't think it's worth the $69 for it.

The main difference comes down to the pads' quality. To be blunt, the Dekoni pads are higher quality than the Pali pads. It's actually stitched as opposed to just...glued and held together by hopes and dreams. It's also a bit stiffer at first, but they mold to your head as they warm up.

After spending more time with the Sundara, I can't really think of a better ortho between $350 and the LCD 2C. The Verum beats it in overall timbre and frequency response, but, quite frankly, the Sundara far outpaces it in everything else. Unless you can get a fantastic price on a HE500 or a LCD2, I don't see much reason to get any ortho besides this one.

That said, it has its quirks. Mainly, some people will find it too bass light (as it has a gentle downward slope from the lower mids to the subbass) and too bright (and a touch sibilant.) Lucky, for like $3, you can fix this issue with some shelf liner and five minutes of your time.

 

They also take very well to EQ. I picked up the 2020 revision on Black Friday sale for $320, and the oratory1990 EQ preset addresses all of the above quirks for me. I'm really pleased with them. If anyone is using these with Peace equalizer, you can try the attached config.

 

I think my hearing must be broken or something. I'm used to the Hifiman house sound from the HE4XX and the HE6SEv2, namely clean bass, good midrange presence, slightly overcooked treble and a little thinness in the mids, but nothing too unnatural. Just a light, detailed presentation that suits stuff like classical music.

Getting into the latest revision of the Sundara, from people's impressions and from measurements, I expected something very similar, with perhaps somewhat rolled off bass, less thin mids and more laid back treble. Instead, what I'm hearing is a bit of a bass cannon, with noticeably recessed mids but well balanced but slightly veiled(?) treble. For lack of a better term, I'd call it L shaped.

The bass is definitely recording dependent - old acoustic stuff like Ella and Louis that didn't have much bass (especially not sub-bass) sounds okayish, but modern bass-centric stuff like GoGo Penguin is pretty overbearing. It reminds me a bit of the Balanced pads on the DT 1990, minus the murder treble.

The other weird thing about the bass is that it really doesn't bleed into the mids at all, such that male vocals sound pretty thin, so it feels like it's mostly a sub-bass focused boost.

It's also not a pleasing bass like on my old LCD2C, sounding pretty one-note wub-wubby.

Also oddly, turning up the volume on the Sundara helps balance things out a bit and brings out the mids some more, which is the opposite of my usual experience.

To make sure my hearing or brain aren't broken, I compared to both my Verum One and HD58X. Verum One's bass sounds much more balanced and natural. On the HD58X, bass feels a little thicker in the upper bass, but it doesn't drown out the mids and doesn't fatigue me the way the Sundara does. Both sound much more correct to me overall, and both much more enjoyable than the Sundara.

If I have time, maybe I'll dig out my MiniDSP E.A.R.S. to see if there's something weird going on with this pair, but to my ear, channel matching sounds just fine, so I doubt it's a defect.

This thing has me questioning everything I thought I knew about my hearing, and not in an enjoyable way.