Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    That's been my experience with the Vidar also, though I've been told it is the opposite. The McCormack that replaced it definitely brought some needed smoothness up top. I wouldn't recommend getting a Vidar if you're looking to smooth out the top end in your chain.
     
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  2. jayeshrc

    jayeshrc Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    Youre right, this is what I meant. your choice of words are better than mine :)
     
  3. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    Yeah. I noticed that Vidar's bass is not as much as the hegel h160 as well. Even with my speakers placed at the room's corner, I didn't need to really eq the bass down as compared to the hegel.

    Not sure if that's good or bad but at least it works for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  4. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    i had a eve sc205 previously. switching voltage is easy as flipping a switch. they provide fuse for 110v as well, so basically just have to change that.
     
  5. Toolkit

    Toolkit Rando

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    I bought the Adam T7V and ended up getting the UK one. Fortunately, it was universal voltage built in so I just used my same generic US power cords and that's all it took! Maybe HEDD is the same.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  6. Toolkit

    Toolkit Rando

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    BTW, you have a lot of strong opinions from what I've read here. Where do you (or anybody) stand on different tweeter types? Get ready for a wall of text, becaus I came to the conclusion that AMTs (air motion transformer) style tweeters were the "best" and whenever you read about them too, it almost always involves a sales pitch, like:

    * it's folded design makes it act like a larger dome tweeter
    * it pushes out air faster so it's more revealing and analytical
    * they have ridiculously HF extension, so they should are intrinsically better and more linear
    * people often describe them using the term "resolution"
    * AMT is used in HEDD/Adam/EVE/HEDDetc, mostly "techy" popular brands known for being detailed

    Then I tried the Adam T7V. Yes, yes, I know. Untreated room that needs dampening too. HOWEVER, even after running it through Sonarworks, it still sounded bright and "forceful" to the point of being less intelligible. I've never found a term for this, but I liken it to damaged memory states caused by either drugs or things that aren't meant to remembered, like dreams. Even if I remember my dreams, there is still the unavoidable feeling/knowledge that recall is foggy or incomplete and you need to consciously focus on remembering while you can. I found that it sounded really realistic though in the cliche sense of experiencing a live instrument vs a recording, but these speakers had to go because it made tracks like this "Gone" sound unbearable and just "wrong". That synth line in Gone just sounded WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more digital and overpowering in a sense that I could not easily listen to it. I also fucking hated my sweet spot had less area.

    As I decided to dig deeper though, I realized there is a lot more to this tweeter issue than I ever see brought up. Apparently dome designs have better dispersion than AMT (which are like mini line arrays), and to add insult to injury, domes are the only ones that seem to get fancy waveguides like JBL M.2, Genelec Directivity Control, Neuman. I know that others come with waveguides too, but look at them (HEDD Type 07, Adam in general), they look so simple or like they are trying to give you a small sweet spot. KRK G4 line doens't even have what looks like a waveguide at all. And there is the fact harder materials might have ringing as a property of using a hard material vs soft materials that are more dampened by suffer in the speed depart... lets assume I slapped Sonarworks onto a whole bunch of different types of tweeters and made them all perfectly. Besides frequency, how else would different designs or materials express themselves? Is that too heavy of a question to ask!?

    I thought I was a person who a wanted revealing, analytical speaker and that was it because it was the "most accurate". I really think what I want though is a huge sweet spot that just has a cohesive sound, like all the parts work together, one piece doesn't overshadow others and steal your focus. I also just love the sound of harmonic exciters(?) and transient shapers if you add DSP to it. My phone speaker is somewhat shit quality, but it is on the higher end side and every once in a while I listen to a DJ mix on it. The percussive elements always sound so forward but not harsh or bright, so you can really tell how things evolve. I listen to the same songs later and it's like "Where did everything go!?" Think like progressive house, or minimal techno... a lot of these songs "shake" and sound better when they are brighter or even a little distorted and less "nuanced" sounded... and maybe my phone brings out the brings out the inner distortionphile in me, but they sound good and I want whatever that is when I upgrade.

    So what do you think about different tweeter designs and materials? What's your take?
     
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  7. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    HEDD are indeed universal. I have a pair of Type 07. They're outstanding. I bought them B-Stock and the condition is pretty crappy, so I'm returning them and either getting new Type 07 or Type 05. The 07 are way more than my room needs, and the claims that you don't need a subwoofer with them is wildly exaggerated.

    Yeah, they go low and have great, tight bass. But, I need some legit shaking and I use my sub with them anyway. No sub needed to hear the low notes, sure. But you need a sub for your chest to thump properly.

    Sometimes I forget that I'm more of a basshead than normal people.
     
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  8. Riotvan

    Riotvan Got lost for three weeks at Delft City Hall

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    Nearfield or not subs make everything better. That's why i have two. Getting them integrated properly can be a challenge though.
     
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  9. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    I love distortion plugins too. They’re overused in modern pop music but underused in self productions, which means there are not enough harmonics for a solid bassline on many speakers and rooms. Older analog gear driven hot took care of this on its own.

    The better AMT tweeters have detail I perceive but measure with much higher distortion than traditional soft domes. They’re very hit or miss to me. I like the Adam X-Art tweeter in the A7X and S series but found the T series one unlistenable. The Emotiva ones were boring. Very poor dispersion on all of them.

    The Krk Kevlar woven Dome has poor dispersion and is a little dull and lacking in some fine details but it works in their current speakers. I don’t know how even it is or the distortion figures but it is tolerable just like the Adam A7x amt but it doesn’t sound as good. Iggy’s raw power remix doesn’t bite like it should.

    Metal domes all have resonances, hard breakups, and IMD even when the breakup is above the audible band. I have never heard one that is tolerable long term. They’re all instant pain or fatiguing. Focal Beryllium tweeters are awful. Amphions and Current Genelec just off and fatiguing.

    Soft dome has low distortion and much better damped breakups. It’s the only tweeter I’ve found consistently tolerable from Chinese dull button domes to Yamaha papery dryness to British rasp.

    The fancy waveguides improve dispersion but all color the sound and universalize the staging somewhat ime. The Stooges should not sound cinematic. I want cohesive bleed and distortion everywhere like Fun House and Iggy’s Raw Power remix. DR 1-2 but it smokes Bowie’s chopping balsa wood drums and hallway mix.

    I’d go for a flattish, detailed, dry soft dome if I were you and looking at monitors. maybe with a waveguide but most of these give the finger to waveguides. Think Yamaha, Dyn, and ATC type tweeters that all can bite your head off if it’s in the music, not a “never fatiguing”, HD 650/Quested type thing. They never snap and sear like real life snares and distortion pedals. Early Deicide should be unearthly tight and melting faces off like the end of an Indiana Jones movie.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  10. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Only subs or three ways with huge 15” woofers will complete your quest for bone rattling sub bass.

    How is the tweeter vs Adam A7X if you ever heard that? I know it measures with less distortion but measurements are one thing and real life is another.
     
  11. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    I found the Adam A7X anemic. Thin, a bit sharp, not much fun to listen to. The HEDD is a more enjoyable listen.
     
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  12. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Did y’all know that Cees formerly of Metrum Acoustics started making speakers under his Acelec brand? First model is a compact monitor with an aluminum cab:

    "The technical criteria were quite simple: extreme stiffness from 15mm bituminized aluminum panels bonded with rubberized glue to avoid cabinet ringing of any kind and thus the time smearing of fast powerful transients. Usefulness in a normal living environment was another requirement so performance would be to a lesser extent determined by placement close to a wall or corner.“

    [​IMG]

    Review over on at 6Moons (yes, get your 6Moons translation app ready):
    https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/acelec/
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  13. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Forget about materials for a minute. Even if you EQ to a flat on-axis response, there are factors which will impact the resulting sound. Off-axis radiation is super important, because it will dictate the spectral balance of reflected sound. Let's say your speaker is designed so that directivity for upper mids suddenly gets wider. Bam - you get an upper mid heavy sound, even if the on-axis is flat.

    Then there's also decay times. Longer decay for a frequency region will make it appear louder. Usually long decays are due to resonant modes which appear in the frequency response. Well, guess what... they might only appear in the off-axis response. It's very apparent for breakups on some woofers.

    There are many ways how to misdesign a speaker so that it cannot be fixed by calibration.
     
  14. Mindbender

    Mindbender Acquaintance

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    I was just at the Yodobashi Camera Store in Tokyo last week. This store (and BIC camera - B&W 803's on the floor!) blew my mind.

    Headphone and Speaker selections were great! Electronics were ok. But these "camera" stores blow away any stores that are near me.

    [​IMG]

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    (Edit: I was replying to an earlier post - #1100 - and forgot that I'd get stuck at the end of the thread. Sorry.)
     
  15. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    I've had the HEDD Type 07s for long enough now that I've found my main complaint: The sweet spot. It's pretty small.

    It's not super tiny (possibly thanks to the waveguide), but it's small enough that I can get out of it by moving in my chair. Side to side is pretty tight. Up-down is about as tight. Front to back isn't too bad.
     
  16. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    AMT tweeters man
     
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  17. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    I was there 2 weeks back as well. But to be honest, most of the speakers are un-listenable. Way too high or blocked by floorstanders. Not to mention I did not bring a CD to test the speakers out so have to listen to jpop

    I'm glad that I manage to listen to the expensive jbls though.

    The room with all the BBC style monitor is great as well
     
  18. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    Anyone thinking about Mackie XR624 or XR824, they're on sale pretty much all over now. PSSL has the best price at $250 a piece: https://www.pssl.com/Mackie-XR624-6-Inch-Powered-Studio-Monitor-each

    Chinese era Mackie garbage? I grabbed a pair to find out. They're really quite good *for the price* so far. They're much more sensitive to electronic fuckery than I'm used to and any wonky PSU stuff going on from my PC gets shunted right into the speakers as hiss or buzz.

    Much bigger sweet spot than something like the HEDD Type 07, although the HEDD does some appreciably better in pretty much every respect.

    So far, I'd say they're better than anything I've heard in the price range of $500 a pair. They're reminiscent of the HR624mk2, but I think the HR series sounds better overall (and probably should. The XR series is the cost-cut version of them and went to a port instead of a passive radiator).
     
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  19. murray

    murray Friend

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    @Luckbad, thanks for reporting on these. Did you get the XR624 or XR824? I am interested in your findings as I currently have the "little brothers", the MR524, in my secondary system and I was wondering what the bigger, more expensive ones could be capable of. These are one of the few brands available locally from a musical instrument shop.
     
  20. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Soft domes are the only way.
     

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