Pre and Post Effin Ringing and shit like that

Discussion in 'Blind Testing and Psychoacoustics' started by ultrabike, Aug 17, 2016.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Oh... Ariadne Diaz? Cow or not cow, she's awesome. Deeeeep "Science" material for sure.

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    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  2. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    But you can mate with her and produce viable offspring unlike a cow...
     
  3. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

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    Back in 2012, JH Audio used to have this dsp/amp called the JH3A which uses dsp to correct phase/timing issues specific to their iem, but it was abandoned in favor of freqphase. But it seems J Harvey has more serious design/hearing issues(layla frequency spikes anyone?)....

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/jh-audio/jh3a-amplifier-update/10151977450012283/
     
  4. cooperpwc

    cooperpwc Friend

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    The JH3A was never released as intended. The original design had user-controlled active crossovers. After tons of publicity on HF, endless delays and just before release, JH Audio were reminded that they did not own the patent for the active crossovers which Jerry had registered to UE before selling that company to Logitech. The DSP version was an embarrassing turnaround. (Oops, we never needed the active crossovers anyway.) RIP
     
  5. Andre Y

    Andre Y Friend

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    Has anyone listened to any of the Meitner DACs with adaptive filtering? He introduced it back in the 90s with his iDAT, and it would change the digital filter depending on how impulsive (ie. sharp) the upcoming signal was, using a low-ringing, shallow filter for stuff with lots of high frequencies, and a classic brickwall for signals without a lot of high frequency content. Apparently, he's still doing it in his latest DACs. There's a patent for it too: https://www.google.com/patents/US5388221

    HDCD did something similar too, except probably more accurately since it determined the filter it needed when downsampling to 44.1 from its native 88.2kHz (or was it 176.4?) sampling rate. That seems to be a better way to do it than guessing based on just 44.1 data, since the reconstruction kernel should be based on the one used for sampling.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I had heard that the patent thing was bullshit excuse from JH for not being able to deliver - and that UE never went after JH. I also doubt an active crossover for any implementation would hold up - however a very specific application of it probably would. Patenting an active crossover for IEMs would be like me patenting the bass shelf filter I made for the Elear.
     
  7. MrButchi

    MrButchi Gear Master Europe

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    Well, devil is always in the details, but I mostly agree with you @Marvey.
    The only case where a patent could make sense would be with specific iems raising a new problem that couldnt be solved by applying conventional active crossover receipes.
    But then the scope would be as large as a needle.
     
  8. cooperpwc

    cooperpwc Friend

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    The US system of process patents boggles the mind but it is very real. I am not defending it.

    I was very active on Head-fi at the time. The JH Audio retreat seemed real enough but this alternative explanation also makes sense as the delays were endless. Anyway I never had a positive impression of JH Audio. I will buy into the worst conspiracy theories and throw in a UFO. :)
     
  9. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Just a single data point but when I have had to use EQ to "remaster" a LP transfer I always prefer the sound of linear phase EQ to minimum. To my ears the equal pre/post ringing of linear phase retains (or maybe even slightly enhances) the soundstage and ambiance of the recording (aka: it sounds "natural") while linear often makes things sound more "dead". Note that this is for acoustic stuff; for samples or purely electronic music I might prefer minimum.
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    While I think there is value to understanding the technical aspect of things, in terms of what we like, I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer (...unless things go terribly wrong).

    I get irritated when someone calls pre-ringing evil and finds it in itself to start a jihad against it. IMO it is important at some levels and at some point to understand this shit.

    But preferences are preferences. And this world would indeed be poorer if our options where narrow.
     
  11. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Why does latency matter?
     
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    In many cases it doesn't.

    However, in some cases it may: perhaps mixing, or if too much latency perhaps lip sync in movie and video applications may be needed...
     
  13. Madaboutaudio

    Madaboutaudio Friend

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    What do you guys think? Time domain aligned or not?

    [​IMG]
     
  14. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    Oh, right, I guess any time you're talking about a USB audio device then zero latency is a built in "feature" of sorts, in order to mate with native video because video sync is what most people want. I think there are devices that allow you to sync audio and video. I'm not sure how popular those are.

    Not sure. I'd need to spend some time alone with it and get back to you.
     
  15. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    People have to go somewhere when they run out of things to say about jitter.

    I think it is criminal that DAC manufacturers do not publish wow or flutter figures.
     
  16. NekoAudio

    NekoAudio Acquaintance

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    Not sure if this was meant to be serious or not. In theory there should be no frequency-based variance of the time at which the signal is reproduced with a DAC. I have gotten weird phase measurements with DACs before but never ones that exhibited actual variance.
     
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Sorry! Sometimes my sense of humour is not obvious if you don't know it already. Think: deadpan British :cool:
     
  18. NekoAudio

    NekoAudio Acquaintance

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    Ah. Okay! :)
     
  19. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I'm not exactly sure what's happening inside that magic filter of theirs, but it looks like a very high tap linear phase architecture. Linear phase has many advantages, but there are two distinct party poopers.
    1. Latency. For linear phase the filter needs to "know" the future, which it can't, so it waits. More taps means more latency. This sucks for video, but can be automatically or manually compensated. For gaming you can't compensate, because with interactive content the future is unclear.
    2. Pre-ringing. This here is the real suckage supreme. All filters ring, but linear phase pre-ringing, when heard, is extra nasty. In nature you are used to post ringing because echoes sound like post ringing. Our brains don't mind that too much. Audible pre-ringing sounds weird. For isolated transients like percussion instruments it introduces smearing, which dulls attacks. Our Reference plug-in has a phase linear option and we don't recommend using it for drum monitoring. Usually with music you don't hear the smearing too much, so it's not that much of an issue.
    In conclusion, there is no free lunch with DSP. The closest one could get would be using minimum phase for bass and linear phase for upper frequencies. That way you'd need less taps, because bass eats up that shit like crazy. And up high phase linearity makes more sense, because overtones are usually used for auditory location.

    Call me out if I'm dead wrong somewhere. I'm just a marketing guy with a hobby.
     
  20. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    1. Latency is indeed a problem in some cases.

    2. Pre-ringing only affects initial transients. As in the first few milliseconds or microseconds when one starts to play anything. After that there should be no nasties.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017

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