The Two Channel Advice Thread

My thoughts exactly. Unless you are looking for head banging levels.

 

If you put the speakers beside the TV do not forget to cover the glass table with a sheep skin or something other that will prevent the early reflection off the table towards were you sit while listening. Even dsp will not be able to correct that mess. Or put the table somewhere else when listening to music.

 

I got a coupla of body pillow covers for $10/each at Target I use in this way.

 

So I auditioned the Klipsch La Scala's today. Condition looks good overall, though I suspect that cabinets are not original or someone tried to refinish them at one point. One speaker had a chip on the top side veneer.

Speakers were against the wall, approx 6 ft apart, pointed forward, seating about 8 feet away with a hard wall behind us. Room was untreated overall, with open joists above (we were in the basement).

Overall sound was good, very airy, room filling, I felt like there was a slight upper-mid shoutiness but my friend didn't feel that, though felt they were a bit weak on detail while I thought they were fine. We both thought the imaging/width was very weak. Really it was a uniblob of sound in the middle, albeit nice sound. We both honestly thought the seller was playing in mono at first. Horizontal dispersion was good (again it just felt like mono). Vertical also surprisingly good.

I feel the speakers need a lot of space, both in front of them and to be further apart. For me, standing closer actually reduced the mild shouty feeling but didn't help with the width/separation.

Bass light for such a big cabinet, though that was forewarned. Everything was sealed up so I couldn't check on the condition of the woofers. These things are so big... roughly 2'x2'x3'. Would not fit my living room at all. These would be great as a basement system... but my basement is unfinished right now and a mess of a construction zone.

So overall, impressed by the "bigness" of the sound despite the smallness of the staging... but not impressed enough to want to pull the trigger even if the guy is offering it at a stellar deal. Also too big to be able to reliably flip in my local small market. Maybe if the guy calls me back and drops it some more I'll get it for the sake of having it and figure out the basement situation later, but for now it's going to be a pass. At least I got to experience the sound though. Always a valuable lesson to be had when you get your own ears on things. I think it would be a most excellent speaker to build a room around. Maybe some corner loading to boost up the lower end.

 

Hard wall behind you says it all, early reflections galore, no wonder it sounded like mono.
I think you are right, either you build the room around the speaker, if you can’t you should choose a speaker which works well within the limitations of your existing room.
Having a hard wall close behind your listening position, do not bother, stick to headphones.

 

Continuing my little saga, I got a chance to audition a few speakers the other day. I went in originally hoping to try the KLH Model 5 which is a sealed speaker, but unfortunately they didn't have one in stock. I tried few random ones based on the salesguy's recommendations (I feel like he didn't really listen to my requirements and just pushed his favourites or the ones he wanted to sell)
Elipson 3220: I did not like and felt scratchy/pushy in the upper mids, layered in a negative way like the vocal layer was poorly mixed into the music
Elipson 3210: the bookshelf version which had the same problem as the floorstander, beamier, sharper/more impactful upper bass but obviously rolls off the bottom sooner
Audiovector QR7: this one was ok, still slightly pushy but fuller sound and more coherent overall compared to the Elipsons
Q Acoustics Concept 500: oh this was very nice, clarity a step up from the QR7, fuller bottom without mud, but whoops we're into 5 digits (CAD) so let's walk out of that room (and I didn't like it enough to pay that kind of price anyways)

Finally I did actually listen to the KEF LS60. It was marginally less defined than the QR7 but overall cohesiveness across the entire band was nice. Punchy bass without feeling bloomy. Horizontal and Vertical dispersion felt good. Having it as an all-in-one package that handles all the tv hdmi-arc input and streaming is also a huge plus. More than I want to pay, but not needing the amp and pre means I can (maybe) sell some of my existing stuff which starts to nudge it back into "can I justify this?" range.

I was chatting with another shop and the owner is a friend of mine, and he was actually trying to talk me out of spending big money, saying my room layout is so bad (speakers against the wall and corner) that I'll have so much room interaction that he wouldn't spend more than a grand on speakers. Hmm.

 

With my room this is pretty much where I'm at. I did build some A26 speakers I love and I'll slowly work on my room I guess. I heard some speakers in a treated more proper room at a dealer and I wish I never did. Once you hear you can't unhear, it makes so much difference.

 

I'm wondering if something like a Larsen or an omni like the Ohm Walsh would work better for you.

They are difficult to get ears on, though, ... And both of them are in a state of flux of ownerships ...

(edit) or maybe a line array like the Amazing Carver ALS ....
Shame the Epique kit is no more.

 

Unfortunately I don't really have space for room treatments anywhere. The right side is a big window, and we have rolling shades and a light curtain (more like a wispy drape) in front of those. My partner is tolerant gracious enough to let me have speakers, I'm not touching the curtains. The left side kinda opens up so reflections shouldn't be an issue there. Speakers will be practically flush against the back wall, don't really have much choice there. A bit of a saving grace is the room is carpeted and there's even a rug on top of the carpet... but there's a big glass coffee table on top of the rug.

What options are out there for sealed floorstanders? Two on my list are the KLH Model Five and Studio Electric M5.
I know there's the ATCs (I used to have the 20's and I do like their sound), but they ramp up in price very quickly once you move to their floor models, though apparently even their ported ones don't behave like ports and still sound the same so I'm intrigued.

 

Wouldn't an omni be even worse coming from a corner? I don't mind getting bass reinforcement from a corner, but I would think the top end is going to be a mess.


edit: I should note that imaging/staging is not a crucial concern, I am accepting that as an inherent limitation of the space that I have to work with. "Room fill while sounding coherent and without getting harsh" is the name of the game.

 

Your edit is what both Larsen and Ohm Walsh are known for.

I've heard a Larsen at a show, against the wall, with no treatment. It sounded much better than it had any right to given its surroundings. Imaging, as you say, wasn't stellar and I think it would have been better with a subwoofer.

I've not heard the Ohm. Its design includes an absorption device to keep the back wall reflections to a minimum. My guess would be were you to position that towards the corner it'll sound fine. And it has the most WAF-friendly footprint of anything other than Role Audio that I've seen.

P.S. Did you say if you had any DSP-based room correction available to you?

 

Wide front panel speakers would be optimal in case they have to be stationed against the wall.
Or in other words fancy minimal difraction designs would be wasted in that scenario.
In corner placement look for something that rolls off gradually in bass. So that in optimal placement the speaker would sound slightly lean. It is not necessarily closed box.
I designed a pair for just that use case, vented. Works well.

edit: Troels has just come out with a kit that suits your requirements just right.
The good part is that you can easily tweak something you do not like.

 

The Larsons aren’t really omnis they are designed in order to sound good in room their is not to have a perfect free field FR (which is what you won’t get in a room anyway).
Here is a link to a test which explains the philosophy behind their design, you will need google translate because it is in German. As to the “judgement” on their performance, it is typical hifi journalism:
https://www.fairaudio.de/test/larsen-8-lautsprecher-box-test-1-dwt/

 

I faced the same problems and built those : Ergo IX 2-way DIY speaker kit | KJF Audio

They are of course not perfect but solved my obvious bass problems and are technically far superior than my old speakers.

 

Isn't this ideal for something like older generation Klipsch Forte? They're meant to be nearly against the wall and the added directivity from horn loading would help take some of your room out of the equation. They're known to be a bit unpolished and rock n roll while stock but I heard a pair of modded Forte II's with ALK Engineering crossovers and it really seemed to bring refinement. One of the best values in audio I've experienced.

 

See the pictures in this post here...
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...hannel-advice-thread.3191/page-60#post-433979
Sadly, I only have a smidge under 14" of width to place the speakers. I was originally looking at the Klipsches, heck the Cornwall is literally corner+wall, but they are all too big.

 

I have a pair of microwalsh talls and they do work well with less then optimal listening spaces, particularly up against walls and corners. The walls reinforce the bass and the ohms do well at about 10 inches away. Imaging/soundstage is good and again, works best with walls.

I'm currently in a room that opens on one-side, so the imaging is not the best atm. I've had these for a while so I'm looking at picking up something else like a BBC reference speaker for a change, plus I wouldn't say the ohms strength is details or clarity. Ohms also work great if you move around the room as you don't really need to sit at a particular sweet spot for them to sound good.

 

More auditions and info dump/stream of consciousness impressions today. I visited 3 shops and one recording studio. Presented in roughly the order I heard them. Note by the end I am fatigued and everything starts sounding harsh so take the last impressions with a dose of salt.

Location: Creative Audio, small square room (maybe 10x10) low room treatment but good placements
Sonus Farber Lumina V Amator: smooth transition up fro mids to vocals, downfiring port 3-way, Amator vs non-Amator is improved cabinet finish and crossover, roughly $500 difference, not too heavy in bass it's there but smooth, light on impact, treble not harsh, very laid back sound overall, maybe too much so

Dali Oberon 5: top end similar-ish to the Focals, bit of sweetness in the midbass, more mid-forward than the Sonus Farber, treble bit tilted up prickly sounding at times, 2-way
(did not listen: owner says the Oberon 7 is simply bigger woofers, more bottom end; the Oberon 9 is a 3-way and different sound)

Location: Advance Electronics: good room treatments, roughly 25x20, not ideal placements (for visual, not acoustics)
Paradigm Founder 80F: vocals good, crisper but not pushy, good coherency better into the mids, very slight treble tilt less than the Dali, 2.5-way, very slightly congested, kinda hollow bass
Founder 100F: proper 3-way, bass fills out,

Moon Voice 22 bookshelf: surprisingly good for such a small speaker, overall very clean sound, reaches deeper than expected, I need to audition this one again; of all the stuff I heard today this one surprised me with how good it sounded (this one also had ideal room placements compared to the floorstanders I heard)

Location: No Fun Club recording studio: amazing room treatment and ideal speaker placement
ATC SCM150: simply wonderful, everything I like about the ATC sound but bigger and better than I remember, super smooth midrange (recording engineer notes it makes everything sound too good, not great for mixing), interesting that I don't feel much coming from the port, good deep reach but not super impactful. This is out of budget though, and it's also the size of a big mini fridge... but damn I would build a room around this. Maybe consider a sub if you really want impact for movies or electronic thump, but hardly necessary

Location: Altitudo Audio: low room treatment, maybe 15x20 cramped with dozen of other speakers, ok placements, by this point I'm fatigued so everything is sounding sharp

Audiovector R3: overall very similar to the QR7 I heard last time, a little cleaner bass, less hard treble, I still feel like there's a slight coherence issue, or maybe I just don't like AMT tweeters

Audio Physic Midex: clean and smooth and balanced, least pushiness of everything I've heard in this store outside the KEF, down port is more of a relief rather than port, oh wait this is $20k nah pass

Gold Note A50: sweet top, good reach down, slightly more forward male vocals, more impact than the Midex, feels slightly pushy but I'm fatigued, slightly V-shaped

Q Acoustics Concept 50: the half price brother of the Concept 500, mostly the same smoothness, ok impact but a bit less body than the 500
Q Acoustics Concept 300: the bookshelf version of the Concept 500, sounds very very similar but with reduced bass output as expected

Sonner Legato Duo: Reminds me of the Midex again (also simila shape/config), but more upper emphasis less detailed, slightly congested (again fatigued)

Elac Vela407: ok but I feel it does not match the price, felt strained and V shaped, mid forward, thumpy midbass but rolls off early, also more fatiguing (but I'm tired?)

KEF LS60 (again): so many of the other speakers do one thing well but I can criticize something else, the LS60 just feels like a solid B+ speaker in all categories, I wish for a little more definition and clarity, bass is actually stronger than everything else I've tried but I suspect that it's some DSP trickery as it's strong but not necessarily clean, cohesion actually sounds very good through the range, and while I understand the pitfalls of having this all-in-one speaker with all the digital inputs and streaming blah blah where if something goes wrong it's pooched, I also really appreciate the cleanliness of not needing all the other boxes (streamer + pre + amp + cables) and this is currently still at the top of my list. Also I did not feel as fatigued and this was my last speaker of the day.

Top rankings (not considering price), fuzzy memory to rank blah blah or maybe these are just the ones that stood out:
SCM150 >> Midex > Q Concept 500 > Paradigm Founder 100F > LS60 > Sonus Farber Lumina V > Moon Voice 22

Top rankings (considering price and functionality):
LS60 > Q Concept 50 > Sonus Farber Lumina V

 

Sounds like some fun auditions, and thanks for the detailed notes.

I'm going to hear some KEF today, the Blade 2 and the Reference One Meta large bookshelves, mostly for shits and giggles, but with maybe a vague interest in the Ref One Meta somewhere down the line. I don't think my 15'x13' room would even work well with the Blade 2's, but I'm curious. They certainly look cool as heck, and this being the UK, it's common to find deals on KEF stuff.

I'll also try to get ears on the LS60. I also don't really have major fears about the electronics crapping out, and KEF is big enough that I'd imagine they can support such repairs for a good couple decades. My concern is more their app and streaming connectivity. My LS50W are constantly losing/forgetting my wifi router and needing a reboot and a maddening amount of tinkering to get reconnected. In one case, I had to keep going into my router's settings to change some incredibly granular setting to get it to work. I've never had another connected product even be so remotely finicky, and so I'd, personally, be wary of the LS60 for that reason. It really ruins my pleasure in the LS50W, which are otherwise great. You can always run a digital source into the built-in amp, of course, but that defeats the clean look and feel.

You'd think that just running a LAN cable into the back of the LS50W would solve it, but, no. I've given KEF an earful, like some cranky old man, on this a couple times. But, naturally, YMMV.

 

Yeah the whole digital integration thing is always a worry. I recently picked up a WiiM Ultra and I'm thinking I may return it already. Sometimes it just loses output and I have to reboot it. Almost guaranteed if my router/wifi drops or hiccups or whatever, weirdly while it is down it works fine, but as soon as the network comes back and the WiiM reconnects, then it stops outputting. Very frustrating. Also the fact that almost all of my functionality disappears without wifi is bad. Why can't I just get in through the front panel controls huh?