Turntable budget allocation and when to upgrade components

I am wondering - is there a asset allocation guideline for vinyl similar to the great headphone -> amp -> Dac digital guideline? I realize this falls within the source category of the above and would assume that the user is happy with headphones / speakers and power amps (phono pre amps to be discussed below). Obviously many more components to deal with here. I would also wondering when one knows which

A couple of examples; is a cartridge upgrade going to improve sound quality more than a tonearm upgrade. Should one spend 50% of budget on table/ plinth / platter and 25% on pre amp and remaining 25% on cartridge?

Is there simply to many different components to consider to make any type of rational order to upgrades? A case by case basis depending on many variables and a complicated formula involving arctans and second derivatives? Are we all just shooting in the dark at what the weak link? This may be the best / worst part of my journey into analog realm.

PS I checked this post a couple of times for spelling errors so I wouldn't look stupid and then a realized after posting that the post title is turbtable. Sweet

 

I'm not sure why you say "actually" there. The whole reason I gravitated to a digital-based headphone setup was because I felt I wasn't getting what I wanted out of my turntable and when I searched for solutions, the combinations and prices were incredibly daunting. Now that I have my headphone rig set up to my satisfaction, I'm free to tackle the turntable again.

Of course, I should note that as I got deeper into the headphone world, the plethora of additional considerations caused by digital showed me that complexity was hardly the sole province of vinyl.

P.S. I liked "Turbtables"

 

expensive is true! I just want to hear some of my records I haven't heard in years, but can't afford a decent turntable.

 

Damn you Marv.

 

I have to echo the praise for @shaizada, who has also given me a few recommendations for upgrading my analog setup on a budget that's 1/10th of what you quoted above.

 

I'll chime in a bit here.

@purrin is absolutely correct in that it is very difficult to get a hold on what is the best way to navigate through the analog world. A world that is very mature, carefully crafted and vast. There is a sea of products catering to vinyl playback where the average owner has been around the block quite a few times. Selling any product to this crowd is different in many ways to the digital consumer. So many moving parts in a total electro-mechanical system. I learnt the hard way by diving head first and just spending a lot of resources on understanding what works and why. In return, what I got to really learn is that it is about getting "synergy" within the analog playback system.

As I climbed the analog chain, I was able to understand more about what specific changes lead to specific outcomes. That way, I was able to address how I wanted MY analog setup to sound. Not before long, I had so much fun with so many different analog perspectives, I ended up with many turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono amplifiers to maximize enjoyment from different kinds of analog pressings. Unique perspectives that aren't about RIGHT and WRONG. More along the lines of, how can I play with variables like emotion, magic, energy levels, pleasure of a given recording.

For example, some records I have simply cannot be enjoyed with a super revealing moving coil cartridge. The vinyl imperfections take away drastically from the actual performance. A different Moving Magnet cartridge could possibly hide all those imperfections and let the musical content come through. Sometimes a record is beautifully pressed and mastered and you want to hear every inflection and intention of the performance...that same super revealing Moving Coil cartridge would render utter magic! So what is right and what is wrong then?

Ok back to analog and budgets....

@Merrick , Marv got a solid taste of what outstanding vinyl playback can do with these newer generation of turntables with his VPI Classic 1. So he chose to explore the deeper depths of playback quality. He is passionate about it, motivated and enjoying the musical gains. Compare this to hitting somewhat of a ceiling in the digital arena. This analog arena starts with that as the ground floor with a budget setup...that is what makes this so exciting!

For me, the excitement would be in opening up some musical avenues for people getting into analog on this board (which is pretty much why I hang around here...I enjoy the company and seeing others grow with their own direction). For the most part, I am already pretty much done with my own analog hardware journey (ALMOST! I have my sights on one or two end of life turntables, yet to happen), so I can see now how many paths there are to audio nirvana.

Fun times ahead for so many of you and I am so glad to be part of it! I'll never forget my first few top analog experiences. I really want that for many....easy to live life for just yourself.

 

Excellent posts from purrin and shaizada.

It leaves me little to say.

My budget was always small and had to get there very slowly, mainly secondhand stuff and a lot of listening.

Could not make any real plan or save for a specific component, components popped up and i gave them a listen (having worked as a student in a hifi store sure helped).

The part about the phono pre beeing a component that most people dont pay the most attention to is so true and i for one only recently understood the importance and if not of equal budget maybe it should be even more than tonearm/cartridge combination...

In the end when you know what you want i would say everything is roughly of equal value in a well balanced system.

 

I remember, after hearing vinyl mostly through my shite DJ mixers phonostages as a kid in Brooklyn - to experiencing some CRAZY analog front-ends at The Absolute Sound - and I slowly learned how every lil' thing in the analog playback chain matters - (arm, cart, deck) - but, a great phonostage can wholly transform your analog systems sonic character and soul. I saved a long time to get my beloved E.A.R 868 (it's a full pre w/ DeParavicinis amazing tube stage) - but I gotta say: Ray Samuels made a small battery-powered phonostage that I borrowed from Dave Clark at Positive Feedback (Nighthawk maybe??) years ago - and it not only sounded clean, dynamic, textural and engaging - but it had plenty of gain settings for use with different cartridge loading - more than many phonostages FAR more expensive! I also love my Unison Research Simply Phono tube stage in my office system. That thing is a BEAST -

I always start at source - but, I agree that the phonostage is of equal importance.

For beginners I usually recommend buying a used deck with an easy-to-dial-in arm and cartridge - and try a few phonostages before committing IF you can.

 

The 868 linestage section is the same circuit as the 912 linestage. They differ in their phono sections. Also, the 912 has all the phono controls on the front panel. For the 868 phono, you have to open up the case to get to the phono to switch between three different transformer load settings.

The linestage sounds IDENTICAL. I actually prefer to use the 868 as a linestage due to more purity of design/sound...AND the fact that the power supply is not shared between phono and linestage duties.

EAR 868:


EAR 912:

 

I'd ve never thought I'd find another happy Unison Research happy user in here. Cheers!

 

It IS indeed @purrin - It took me a long time to save for that badboy (Dan Meinwald, E.A.Rs importer for over 20 years is a dear friend - and he's a good friend of Gauravs too) - so, I got a good deal - but it was still a HEAVY purchase for me! But, it's my favorite piece of stereo gear that I own! And - YES - the phonostage is identical to the MONSTER 912!! That pre-amp (people forget - but a true "pre-amp" means line-stage+phonostage - but people just starting calling all line-stages pre-amps) changed the sound of my stereo system more than anything before it. I also got it in all chrome - not the two-tone - its SWEET.

I love Tim DeParavicini's work. Actually - when I worked at Atlantic Records for Arif Mardin (he was a great producer/composer - and he actually dug high end audio - a rarity) Tims name was the only one from the high end that many engineers knew - because of all his studio work for people like the Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Clapton - he was also the reason the early MoFi pressings were so magical. One day I'll also own a pair of his 890 monoblocks (or the 512 Anniversary Limited Edition - but those are rare).

HELL YEAH - I actually reviewed the Unison Research Simply Phono for Positive Feedback years ago - and I had to get it. I was searching for years for a good phonostage for my office/workspace system - and I couldn't spend anything close to what I did on the 868. That thing is so sweet.

This thread inspired me to spin some wax early-morning on my secondary vinyl system:
VPI Traveler w/ Ginkgo Audio Cloud9T isolation platform - Denon 110 cartridge - Sonicweld DampClamp - Unison Research Simply Phono
so thanks for that!

 

Mike, the phono in the 868 and the 912 are actually very different. The 868 phono uses the MC transformers that have 3 loadings (3 ohms, 15 ohms and 40 ohms) and uses 2 tubes (PCC88). The EAR 912 phono sections has 4 loadings (3 ohms, 6 ohms, 12 ohms, 40 ohms) and has 3 tubes in the phono section alone. Both phono sections in both units then use interstage coupling transformers to pass the signal on to the line stage section which ARE identical as you stated.

Just thought I'd share that as I've gone really deep into the details of all of Tim's gear (which I consider one of the best sounding I've heard in my entire audio life, without a single doubt) so I ended up learning a lot about it.

Also, the monoblocks you are talking about are the 509 Anniversary Limited Edition amps which are identical to the 509 MKII amps I'd love to own a pair as well actually, but I am waiting for the new 250 watt plus tube monobocks Tim is currently working on, if they ever see the light of day!

I knew about Tims work with Pink Floyd, but had no clue Clapton and Rolling Stones used his electronics as well. Thats awesome!

 

He also just finished up work at another bands studio I love - I have to ask him again - might've been The Orb - but I'll ask to be sure.

You KNOW I'm gonna call Dan out now right?!?!?
- He told me (as he tells everyone) they're identical! Except for the meters and controls!!

But - I still LOVE the 868 nonetheless, and the HP4 - which, for a headphone amp design over 14 yrs old now (originally designed for David Gilmour of Pink Floyd - which is why it has the VERY cool through-put feature - both XLR and RCA - so it could be placed in the signal path in his studio and still give him access to the next component in the line - I LOVE that cuz as a reviewer, I can have the HP4 and another headphone amp hooked up to the same source - that's DOPE) - the HP4 still holds its own to many top-level reference desktop amps w/ the right tubes, IMHO. It's just got those magic mids of Tim D - and the music is so effortless through it...

But @shaizada - I'm puttin' Dan on notice!

I should mess with him, and tell Tim he does that - OH that would start a war
(you know I love Dan too much to do that)

hey you should come to Dans when I bring the Carbon over there - as he loved that and my ETHERs! That was a GREAT moment.

 

oh - maybe he does just say the line-stage is identical (DAMN, LOLOL)

 

Yup, he does say that the line stage sections are identical. I owned both at the same time, so I was able to also AB them with the exact same cables, tubes etc and also found zero difference with the line stage section. The phono sections are SIMILAR sounding, but not the same. The 3 load EAR MC3 transformers sound exactly the same as the 4 load EAR MC4 transformers, but the tube based RIAA sections are slightly different. The EAR 912 is Tim's statement piece and actually sounds better (as confirmed by Tim AND Dan) than the $27k EAR 312 control center at more than double the cost of the 912 I've never heard the EAR 312, all solid state preamp:





Now, the EAR 324 stand alone phono stage is the exact same phono section that is in this EAR 312 preamp. He lifted the circuit/parts out of the 312 phono and put a box around it and made it the EAR 324 phono I use the 324 phono section for my dual tonearm VPI TNT 6 Hot Rod turntable.

Anyhow, all of Tim's gear sounds absolutely mind numbingly good to me. Even supposed state of the art gear (Constellation Audio, MSB, Boulder, Dan D'Agostino Momentum, DartZeel, Pass Labs, Soulution, Ypsilon and countless others I've spent time with either at home in my own system OR at shows OR at speciality dealers OR at other owners homes) simply does not press the audio buttons that Tim's gear does so effortlessly. I got more satisfaction from single ended, crossover-less, high efficiency speakers with superb quality tube amplification with a few watts than most of the gear out there. But going from that, it was only EAR gear that gave me all that and more.

OK BACK ON TOPIC:

For the OP's original question regarding budget, that is actually very hard as I have found there is NO rule of thumb here. What you need to concentrate on is getting the best synergistic match between all the analog chain components within whatever you set the budget to be I KNOW this doesn't give you a guide line, but post your thoughts and questions here and the rest of the guys (including myself) can try and help you make the best out of your choices. Sometimes a great deal on a great product comes up and it makes sense to build around that....there are so many different scenarios. Just post and someone will surely help out.

Also, no matter how well you address things, the setup will always be held back by the weakest link. After a certain point, it is not about the weak link but more about your listening taste and what you are trying to achieve with a given setup sonically.

 

We've got alot in-common I see, in terms of approaches - For me - it's ALWAYS been about system synergy!! I've actually written that into practically every high end two-channel in-room review I've written from the Zu Audio Omen Defs to USB DACs or IEMS - and I learned that from Hp first, but then by watching it happen through setting up systems in those rooms at Sea Cliff. I was 19-yrs old and that became my job. Man, I was lucky that way - my f__in mom was his copy-editor! She drove him NUTS.
and then at Atlantic - and boy was that a whole different beast!

Yeah, I've been with Roy Gregory on that side of the "whats the most important component, or starting point" debate.He also says it's the system you ultimately experience. My approach is also always more organic I think maybe. It changes with the person. Like you said, taste. It's music man - it will affect us all differently, but those of us lucky enough to experience live music and live with it at our homes and with us day in day out - we can discuss what gear serves up the MUSIC. So I'm with you there.

And what you've heard, believe me I agree!!!! With regard to not-pushing your buttons - but how Tim does
I was fortunate to hear things that I didn't even know existed, or COULD happen with a big high end stereo system:
The Nola Grand Reference system
w/ ALL ASR Battery-Operated electronics - The batteries took up the ENTIRE room 3! - I mean, it was the UBER-AUDIO-GEEK-WET-DREAM
From line-stage, to phonostage, to amps - and you know what the TURNTABLE WAS?!?!

Tims E.A.R Discmaster.
That day I heard and saw that system music became truly holographic.
So many variable contribute.
PLUS:
Dude you gotta hear the Denon at Russ's place with this other suspension solution (you'll laugh but it works, I have a deck with it that proves it does too) - and he finally tried those high-quality bearing iso-feet he's been using under the front-end component under the speakers (he never tried em there, so to hear the difference was staggering - I often do that - stole that from Carl Marshisoto - cant take that credit)
And: a Lil' something I suggested (and provided) he try with the phonostage - the Hegelman?? When you hear what that tweak is you may laugh - but ask him how much it elevated the overall clarity of the system.
and I wanna get over to your freakin place @shaizada

Damn boys - we fortunate...