Would this DAC be a game-changer?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by mtoc, Nov 28, 2015.

  1. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

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    Hello, buddies, I've know the usb gen3 in Yggdrasil is famous, and just found this new thing, MERGING+NADAC, uses the Enternet interface...a cheap CAT6 seems already ok. (In the case of usb cabels, a $600 one is common). Game-changer?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    No. Linn and PS Audio have already done Ethernet.
     
  3. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

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    I know them, but this is different. A network cable connects a pc and the dac directly. Nothing between them. No NAS or Switch...
     
  4. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Why would it be better than any other method of delivering a reliable digital PCM signal?
     
  5. kapanak

    kapanak Canucklehead - Friend

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    And why would anybody sane spend $600 on a USB cable? There are also $3500 Ethernet cables in case you didn't know ...
     
  6. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Who needs cables? You can get a logitech squeezebox/touch off ebay for a couple hundred bucks and manage everything off your iphone. Put your music library onto a usb stick plugged into the Logitech and you don't even need a computer anymore. That gamechanger was a decade ago man.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I used direct Ethernet to PWD2 Bridge. No switch. No NAS.
     
  8. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    How does that make anything different?

    Here's the company's technology page. I suspect that there is enough bollocks there to make it attractive to Audioquest cable buyers, but also some truth too. Up-to-date network guys can comment, please: I'm way out of date.

    Personally, my theory (which is all mine, etc, etc /python) is that ethernet is the way to go --- but not audiophiled internet, because plain simple ordinary networking is more than good enough. I wish I still had the components to try it, but my other theory (which is all mine, etc, etc /python) is that, actually, 10Mb/sec coax ethernet would work fine (leaving aside all those absurd high-sample-rate and multiples of DSD which nobody needs and few even want). So gigabit ethernet?
     
  9. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    On a related note, does anyone have experience/insight with the the AVB protocols that are slowly becoming more commonplace in pro audio? These are all network type thingamabobs.
     
  10. JewBear

    JewBear Almost "Made"

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    It's UDP so no guarantee of not having packet loss. Not sure how it would be any better than USB audio in that case.

    I'm not sure why someone doesn't come out with a USB data mode or IP TCP compatible dac. Sure, you would need a decent buffer but I'm sure audiophiles wouldn't mind waiting 2 seconds for the music to start.
     
  11. Shaffer

    Shaffer Acquaintance

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    Heh, with ~6,000 LPs and ~2,500 CDs, not to mention tape, how many USB sticks would I need?

    |\/|
     
  12. chakku

    chakku Friend

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    Could easily get away with a 1TB external drive if you used ~160kbps Opus (which is arguably audibly transparent compared to lossless with the exception of a few 'killer samples'.)
     
  13. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    If you're carrying all FLACs, well alright you'll need a few. But as mp3's, you wouldn't need many... heck, it's something like 25 cents a gig nowadays on a flash drive. If you don't mind a little more bulk with a usb hard drive, it's something stupid cheap.

    Let's say each LP converted to FLAC is roughly a gig. Ditto for your CD's. So we're at 8-10 TBs? You can get an 8TB hard drive on sale these days for $300.

    So the answer is 1. You need 1 big stick to hold all your music \/
     
  14. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Well there's your mistake, it goes in your scanner, not the cd player. Geez!
     
  15. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Archimago, in one of his experiments, streamed music from the other side of the world, comparing it to music streamed from the server by his desk. The take away is that TCP/IP, despite the things that it may not in theory guarantee, is a very reliable form of transport, and that, even with multiple paths, and a variety of physical transports, the music still arrives just the same (Suck on that, Audioquest!).

    Why UDP? Because it is a simpler protocol with less overhead? but... we have gigabit ethernet, and it is not even that it is something industrial: it exists in most networked homes. It no longer requires expensive, exotic network adapters, routers or cables (suck on that Audioquest!) and, in fact, is almost the default these days.

    (If I wanted to audiophool this stuff, I'd come out with a range of equipment connected by dedicated fibre-optics capable of absurdly huge bandwidth. I'd sell it at ridiculous prices, which some idiots would pay --- and Audioquest would rush to make even more expensive cables for it)

    A music CD is about 700Mb uncompressed. Very much less than a gig compressed as lossless FLAC.

    (And yeah, I detest and despise Audioquest! And I wonder if their network cables would actually pass the relevant CATn spec tests)
     
  16. Shaffer

    Shaffer Acquaintance

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    :)

    Isn't it easier just to play the record? Look at all the steps necessitated by the above, and the time spent on tech-y endeavors, when computing as a whole is meant to save time. It takes less time to slip a CD into my Oppo105 than to cue a track from the 2TB HDD connected to its DAC. Far less time.

    Consider, as well, that analog has to be transferred in real time. Being generous and assuming 4 LPs per day, it would take about four years to digitize the entire collection.

    Don't get me wrong. Digital storage can work well for an individual with a modest collection of music. With a larger assortment, it's simply easier to pick the LP or the CD from its rack and play it. Can you imagine how long one would have to scroll through ~8,500 titles (not songs), in lieu of seeing the entire lot in one glance? Technology is great if it serves a purpose. Technology for the sake of technology, not so much.

    YMMV
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
  17. Shaffer

    Shaffer Acquaintance

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    Such a thing did exist; it was called an ATT option. The average price was around $500 extra per component (DAC and transport) plus the cable. The idea died by the mid-90s.
     
  18. JewBear

    JewBear Almost "Made"

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    Pretty sure TCP guarantees either all the packets or an error indication (the equipment will stop working, at least that's how I'd implement it). The fact is there will likely never be an error indication unless you disconnect the cable or you have a hardware defect.

    Anyways UDP is used because of low latency (send and forget, don't need to worry about potentially resending lost packets). I don't think consumer audio needs to worry about low latency for music though.
     
  19. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    LP rips have to be done in real time. Secure CD ripping takes maybe half of real time. You can rip a CD faster if someone else has already ripped it securely with AccurateRip and just check the checksums but unless you're ripping Whitney Houston or something, there might only be a couple rips and they might all be be burst rips if the CD has been ripped at all. I find quite a few rare metal CDs from the early 90s like this.
     
  20. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    This is why many of my CDs, let alone LPs, will never get ripped. even though...
    ... I'm quite happy with quick-and-dirty CD ripping.

    Interesting. Heck, it just so hard to have an original idea even when one is fooling around!

    IANANE (I am not a network engineer) and I have not worked in IT (or anything else :) ) for over a decade; my memory fades, and I do not reliably keep up with new technology, but... IIRC, TCP/IP just doesn't guarantee the when but it will do its damndest to deliver eventually. Our YouTube viewing may be interupted, but the music on our LAN: not so likely.

    I suppose that packet loss on a LAN is actually unlikely, so UDP is good enough, but we all know the extent to which audiophools can go to pick holes and find risks that don't really matter. Audioquest knows that!
     

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