Distortion Surface: old measurement, new approach

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by atomicbob, Sep 4, 2023.

  1. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,944
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    Next level of enlightenment.
    Mentally visualize music harmonic content overlaid on a given distortion contour.
    Dynamic distortion contour.gif
     
    • Epic Epic x 14
    • Like Like x 8
    • List
  2. rfernand

    rfernand Almost "Made"

    BWC Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2022
    Likes Received:
    732
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    That’s some good shit
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2023
  3. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2020
    Likes Received:
    1,431
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atl
    That's some baller shit right there. We're not worthy :bow:
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  4. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Yeah. I can see "acoustically averaged" music spectra by genre to give an answer to the question, "Is this any good for classical/dubstep/metal/...?"
     
  5. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,944
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    Mjolnir 3 is one incredible amp. Here are distortion surfaces and contours for it.

    01 Mjolnir3 NFB off THD+N surface 300R annotated.png

    02 Mjolnir NFB off THD+N contour 300R annotated.png

    Mjolnir3 NFB off 300R dynamic distortion contour ezgif.gif

    This one is a keeper.
     
    • Like Like x 11
    • Epic Epic x 11
    • List
  6. Degru

    Degru Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Likes Received:
    140
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    It would be interesting to see this approach applied to IMD measurements as well, and perhaps try other types of equipment like DACs.

    It looks like the contour plots for individual harmonics are more interesting than the THD+N, since the latter ends up dominated by noise in the lower regions.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,120
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    This would be very relevant in the sense that we could have a single distortion surface graph for an overview instead of several, which would be more of a PIA to absorb.

    Take the following. All five sets below using the standard THD method would result in the SAME 0.37% THD

    upload_2023-10-1_9-41-13.png

    Now, this is what happens when we weigh the 3rd harmonic four times as much as the first and the fourth harmonic three times as much as the first. (Note that I only have the 4th harmonic here and nothing after that). The idea is that we punish higher harmonics more and we punishing odd harmonics more then even. That is, the 3rd harmonic being odd is going to sound worse than the 4th. I've assigned these weights based on my experience with headphone measurements in ARTA and subjective assessment.

    Let's call this THD(merv):

    upload_2023-10-1_9-41-53.png
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2023
  8. rfernand

    rfernand Almost "Made"

    BWC Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2022
    Likes Received:
    732
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
  9. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Now that's interesting.

    I suggest a workshop/meet where single harmonics are intentionally introduced.
    The listeners could then score how objectionable each is. The SBAF-AD score could be derived.

    Proceeding onto multiple harmonics and scores would be/could be impractical?
     
  10. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,944
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    My take is that Distortion should be decomposed into the following component sweeps over level and frequency:
    1) D2
    2) D3
    3) D4 through D10 as a single sweep, using the penalty weighting scheme suggested above
    4) AC mains noise, fundamental + 5 or 6 harmonics
    5) non-harmonic noise (everything else)

    It may be a PITA to grok, but otherwise too much information is lost in the roll up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2023
  11. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,944
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    short recap examining THD+N at 1 KHz 2Vrms vs surfaces and contours for

    1) DSHA-3F
    2) iDSD Diablo
    3) Mjolnir 3

    Evaluation of the three amplifiers as preached by the Cult of Sinadology:
    Comparison THD+N dist 2Vrms 1KHz.gif
    Very limited view of amplifier performance.

    The same three amplifiers evaluated by scientific advancements in measurement methodology:
    THD+N surface animation.gif
    Infinitely more information about the three amplifier THD+N distortion profiles than in the previous graphic.

    Decomposition of THD+N into D2, D3, 4+HD, Noise AC Mains, Noise Everything Else is on my list of automation activities for data collection and visualization rendering.
     
    • Epic Epic x 11
    • Like Like x 4
    • heart heart x 1
    • List
  12. artur9

    artur9 Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Fantastic!

    What's the 2D projection at the bottom intended to convey?
     
  13. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2020
    Likes Received:
    1,431
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Atl
    It's just a heatmap of surface. Same thing, different way of visualizing.
     
  14. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    10,943
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
    I'd be interested to know from an engineering standpoint what the difference in the smoothness between each surface might be attributed to, particularly between the iFi Diablo and MJ3. My gut says something to do with the power supply sections and the choke in the MJ3, but if so, why, specifically?
     
  15. Justin S

    Justin S Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Likes Received:
    1,535
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Toronto
    Coming more from a creative technical background as opposed to an engineering background, you could probably do something cool with the csv files using a combination of QGIS (use the csv and the grid interpolation tool to create a raster-based elevation map like a DEM file) and Blender.

    QGIS can output the elevation map as grey-scale image at 16bits which can be used as displacement map on a surface in Blender. Blender would allow you to really examine the surface from a range of angles. Depending on the resolution of the CSV data, that surface shape could be pretty detailed. It would take some doing to get the scales correct, but this could be a cool way to visualize this data.
     
  16. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,510
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NW Pennsylvania
    I've always meant to ask this question (out of complete ignorance), but keep forgetting. A question over the the MJ3 thread brought this back up in my mind.

    How much does the 300R load play into these graphs vs a lower load (like from a set of focal cans)? Particularly curious how it would play into the data for the 3F amp since it was ostensibly designed to be synergistic with focal headphones...
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,120
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Focals are 55 to 80-ohms, which are in between Grados and Sennheisers. Given the voltage sensitivity of Focals close to Grados, think of Focals as less current hungry Grados, as if Grados were even current hungry in the first place.

    Also a 300-ohm load isn't that far off from 75-ohms. Where things start to get dicey are at 32-ohms with headphones that need a lot of voltage.
     
  18. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,944
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    I don't know yet. I am still wrapping my head around this greatly expanded view of amplifier distortion. Also keep in mind that two excellent sounding amplifiers may have surfaces and contour maps that differ greatly. I haven't used this method on amplifiers generally thought to fall in the category of sounding either meh, or not good. Even partially automated it remains a time consuming undertaking.
     
  19. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,944
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    The answer is, it depends. Some general rules of thumb (that almost always have exceptions):
    1) amps with higher impedance outputs are likely to measure differently for distortion between low and high impedance loads
    2) high impedance loads want more voltage than low impedance loads
    3) low impedance loads want more current than high impedance loads

    Now add to the mix the complexity presented by many headphones:
    Various headphones annotated.png
    Focal Clear represents a very interesting load rising to 500 Ω at driver resonance.
    HD800 family rises to between 800 and 900 Ω.
    HD600 rises to over 600 Ω.
    HD650 rises to 500 Ω.

    HFM HE-500 and ETA Mini-C both maintain their nominal low impedance over the frequency range.

    So even though we often discuss headphones with respect to their nominal impedance, it is important to be mindful of impedance sweeps such as these.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Epic Epic x 3
    • List
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2023
  20. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    @atomicbob any chance you have an HD595/598 impedance measurement in there? I seem to recall they started off 50's-ish and spiked up but don't remember if it got as high as the Focal.
     

Share This Page