DAP discussion thread

I don't have much experience with DAPs, only owned 1 DAP (RS2) and that one isn't a full fledged DAP so thought I'd ask my question here.

I'm looking for an Android DAP in the Mid-Range category (~500 USD) that sounds Dynamic, has good Resolution and isn't bright/flat like some Topping stacks or too warm (RS2 already sounds warm). It needs to be an Android DAP so I can stream Bit-Perfect audio (mostly Apple Music) to all my Apps and USB DACs like RS2, Mojo 2...

I currently like the iBasso DX170 or the newly released HiBy R6 Gen III, are these good options? or is it better to save more and get something like the Shanling M6 Ultra, iBassi DX240...

 

Thanks so much for the detailed write up! Overall I don’t think the RS2 is the right fit for me. At this point I’m choosing between one of the current Ibasso DAPs, the DX170, DX240, or DX320.

 

Have you tried the ZX707? I'm going to Japan in May and will probably bring a new DAP, but ZX707 seems more in my budget to substitute my ZX2+Andro combo

 

It should work well since the output impedance is the same as the zx2, hence the andros should maintain their tonal balance synergy

 

I purchased a used DX170 and it's on route. If you want me to, I can share how it sounds against some other portable DACs. I'm new to the DAP game so only have the RS2 to compare in this category but if we are talking about portable DACs then I can make a larger comparision.

 

Absolutely, that would be great, thanks!

 

Sony Zx707 + Dunu Zen Pro Review


I have owned the zx2, and wm1a(multiple times), and the zx300 so I am very well familiar with the Sony house sound. I have not heard the new wm1am2, but I heard the difference isn't as pronounced from the wm1a, and is mainly for streaming convenience.

I would probably say Zx707 is a very well balanced dap in the Sony Line-up. It definitely doesn't have the lead in all departments, but does things well enough all around for a engaging listen.

For context, I loved the zx2 for its very slow decay and big dynamic swings, esp in the bass, but it had horrible hiss with iems(even though it had a good blackground). Sound enhancement stuff was weird, but with it off, it often had a stodgy, dryness in the sound, giving you a sense that you were missing reverb. With the sound enhancement on, it would sound odd. Outside of the magic andromeda synergy, it was a harder dap to pair with all earphones.

Fast forward to the Wm1a, You got a dap that fixed the hiss, had direct sound, and generally more technicality in the sound, while being able to pair with most iems. However liquidity in the sound was replaced by a faster sound that was more neutral. It generally lead to more details, but the sound did get grainy and the blackground was greyer than the zx2. Microdynamics were better but Macrodynamics were weaker, and the bass was reigned in a bit. The treble was definitely more extended, but had a tinge of hotness near the upper mids.

You could call this a more neutral/tighter/faster sound, which was technically better, but didn't have the musicality of the zx2.

zx300 was just a worse version of the wm1a, with a even greyer blackground, and just overall more compressed sounding.
I haven't heard the zx507, but it was received lukewarm with the general consensus that it was worse than the wm1a series.

Seeing that Sony was releasing a new zx707, I was curious if they were going to recapture some of the magic of the zx2, so I took a plunge.

It has technicalities closer to the wm1a, but it hits the middle in terms of liquidity/speed, dynamics, technicalities and bass quantity. The sound is not slow, but it isn't harsh or fast, with touch of density/decay adding to musicality and liquidity. The blackground is closer to the zx2 and better than the wm1a, and this leads to a smoother, cleaner grain free sound, though it feels less detailed than the wm1a. The bass quantity is higher, and is stronger in the subbass, adding a feeling of largeness, though it isn't the highest quality in tightness or detail. The treble is very smooth, and perhaps not the most detailed, but with a good sense of air, without any harshness.

But the combination of all of the above captures what I missed about the zx2, while improving upon them enough that I feel I'm not missing out too much from the wm1a. Though I haven't heard the Schiit Yggdrasil LIM, I suppose it is a similar direction/philosophy compared to the Yggdrasil A2. Sacrifice technicalities, for a tonally smooth/agreeable sound with a better blackground.

I feel it is a good pairing with the Dunu Zen Pro for the following reasons:

The Dunu Zen Pro is fast, and sometimes metallic and thin sounding with not enough body. I guess the cayin ru6 somewhat counters this or the rs2 dap, but I think the zx707 just does a good job with it, keeping it technical while adding some body and liquidity.

Zen Pros need a subbass boost as the quantity is left wanting on an iphone dongle. The zx707 alleviates this problem by having a strong Bass output that's bloomy enough to add some warmth.

Zen Pro has spike in the upper mids that are just below my threshold. The smooth treble, of the zx707 reigns it in a little more for a smoother listen. It's still there, but sibilance is diminished and there are no close glass moments, esp in female vocals.

In the short time I listened so far, I think it met my expectations, but ONLY in High-gain....which means you have to import it from Japan since US joins the EU in gimped output power. I do not like the sound on low gain. It runs android 12(doesn't matter to because I don't stream) and while it runs well, it isn't really butter smooth like a phone. The build quality is really good and the dap is attractive. It is a well-rounded dap, but I wouldn't say it is a leader in any category. Hence I wouldn't give it a universal recommendation, but if you like the Sony house sound and miss some qualities of the zx2, I would say it is a worthy successor.

I haven't heard the Shanling m6 Ultra, but would be interested in comparing them if the loaner gets kicked off.

 

It sounded very similar/same to the ZX507. ZX507 + Andro is a great pairing (perhaps even best I've heard) due to it's 1.2 or so output impedance (similar to ZX2) - it also has no hiss and it's rock n roll tuning (mid forward, fast dynamics) pairs great.. 707 also has same impedance. WM1AM2 didn't awaken the Andro properly, it sounded boring (0.6 impedance)

I have yet to properly try the Sony a306 as mine has defect with the output having a massive -10db bass cut, so I'm waiting on this.. but it might also be a good pairing if you like the Andro a bit more forward - it has a 2.2 output impedance. IMO it might be the case out of 3.5mm the a306 is on par with the 707 - if you have a chance go to a Sony store and try it.

Another good Andro combo if you don't mind the faff is Poly + Mojo 2 - it has super low impedance but thanks to it's excellent built in DSP eq, you can fake an OI more suited for Andro.. this is if you want a smoother more liquidy presentation.

 

The key benefits with Sony DAPs for me were good enough sound, unique tuning and OI for best Andromeda pairing and excellent portability: the ZX507 imo was the high point and Sony have taken a step back with offering a large brick like 707 and AM2 DAPs now which don't quite sound competitive enough for the asking price, and don't offer portability.

I was hoping the AM2 will blow my socks off, but it's a bit grainy/fuzzy next to something like a Mojo 2 - which imo can be incredible with HD800s and a nice optical source/poly, desktop level stuff - I was expecting WM1AM2 to get close to desktop level, but it's amplification is grainy and s-master chip is a bit long in the tooth now. Sony need to go back to drawing board and do some more innovation.

I can only recommend Sony now for the small daps a306/507 which offer great portability and good sound for the size/price, their 800$ + larger DAPs are not competitive

 

I haven’t heard the am2 but zx707 is quite light compared to a Wm1a from memory. It’s not much bigger than my iPhone 13pro so it’s plenty portable. I haven’t been in the kilobuck dap game so I don’t know how the competition sounds. The most I would spend is probably a shanling m6 ultra. I would never use a dap to drive a headphone like an hd800.

it’s about synergy at the end of the day. Dunu zen pros don’t sound better out of a Yggdrasil, phonitor chain as it can’t take advantage of the extra power or resolution. I much prefer the zx707, with the better blackground and timbre.

 

Ok, so the DX170 arrived some time back and I've since been using it as my primary device for portable use. Overall, I think as a whole package, both the DX170 & RS2 are performing in the same league i.e. they won't be outperforming higher priced gear like the Mojo 2, micro iDSD Signature... e.t.c. They both have different tunings with the RS2 being more on the organic side of things with a warmer sound signature while the DX170 is mostly neutral with some warmth and a bit forward treble. I used XENNS UP & IE 600 for my testing for the most part but sometimes also paired them with the Edition XS. Balanced 4.4 Out was used with everything. I prefer a slightly warmer and musical sound like the one iFi provides, more specifically, their older house sound of micro iDSD Signature cause I'm fairly sensitive to high frequency sounds and even a hint of sibilance is a turn off for me. With that in mind, let's talk about the 2 devices.

The RS2 on it's own sounds pretty good, it's an organic sounding unit with a warm, full sound and slightly rolled-off and smooth Highs. It's a good upgrade over something like the Cayin RU6, because of the R2R DAC inside, it does not sound as flat as some competitive DS DACs in soundstage and manages to have decent depth for the price which helps in layering. The soundstage is a bit on the Intimate side which is not something I like but there is enough air and space between Instruments and it does not sound muddled or clustered. I find that it's Amp is a bit weak and holds back the overall performance of the unit. It's fine with most IEMs but because it's not very powerful, Headphones like Edition XS don't sound as good. The Internal Amp also colors the sound a bit, making it warmer than I'd like. When adding an external Amp like the Topping NX7, the overall performance is improved nicely with more resolution, dynamics, control and even slightly expanded sound stage so the DAC inside is of pretty good quality. It's even better than the DX170's internal DAC. Unfortunately, just like some other Topping products I've tried, the NX7 was reducing the soundstage depth and added some sharpness up top so I would suggest a different Amp.

The DX170 is a mostly neutral sounding device, with a linear Low end, some warmth in the Mids and slightly forward Treble that gives it some sparkle. Unlike the RS2, the Amp inside the DX170 is pretty good and transparent enough to not color the sound of the DAC inside and the power is also enough to drive the Edition XS reasonably well in High Gain. The Bass here is mostly neutral and not like the full sounding RS2. The Mids are fairly natural sounding, obviously not as organic and full as the RS2 but they are pretty good. The Highs are somewhat sibilant because of the forwardness. It depends on the gear I'm pairing with it and with some the Highs are nice and sparkly (XENNS UP, 99 Classic) but with others (IE 600, Aria) it can get a bit too sibilant. The soundstage here is medium sized, almost as big as the RS2 + NX7 combo but bigger than just the RS2. The depth is not so great when compared to RS2 + NX7, even with NX7 reducing the depth of the RS2. Pairing the NX7 with DX170 did not help the overall sound, it still sounded like it had a medium stage, average depth and added a bit too much energy in the highs.

Apart from the sound, there is one very big difference that sets the both units apart. The RS2 does not have streaming capability, if you have a large collection of lossless files like me, then it's alright but other wise, the DX170 might be a much better device for users of streaming services. The RS2 has a longer battery life when compared to DX170 which has a slightly shorter battery life and runs a bit hot. The RS2 pairs well with detailed and well resolving sets like Edition XS, IE 600, Blessing 2 while on the other hand DX170 pairs with smoother and less bright sets like XENNS UP, 99 Classic, AK Diana... better.

 

Awesome, thank you for the comparison! I have and love the iBasso DC03 Pro which is why I was curious about the DX170, which uses the same DAC chips in the same configuration.

For the ie600, try the Campfire Audio foam tips to remove any sibilance. They work a treat, allowing the ie600 to retain top end sparkle without a hint of harshness.

 

I generally avoid foams but I'll give them a try, I think I have those foam tips you mentioned from when I got the Campfire Honeydew.

 

As for my experiment with DAPs, I think at the moment, I'll keep the DX170 to use as a Bit-Perfect source (SRC Bypass) and upgrade my portable DAC/Amp instead. What I'm getting is that for a given price, DAC/Amps will outperform DAPs because all the money is going to be used for audio components rather than on screen, cpu, ram, OS... e.t.c.

In my testing the Mojo 2, Gryphon, XD-05 BAL are slightly better than similarly priced DAPs like DX170 & RS2. So for me to have a decent upgrade in sound, I'll probably have to get something much higher priced like the DX320 & N7 which are a bit too expensive for me. I do like the concept have having an AIO device so this is definitely worth exploring in the future. At the moment, I'm looking at the Shanling H7 which should prove to be a nice upgrade over Mojo 2 & Gryphon.

 

If you already have Mojo 2 and Gryphon, then Shanling H7 won't really add much more. Mojo 2 has better sound than the H7 imo - if you use it with good optical source or Chord Poly it can outcompete most desktop dacs up to 1000$ if not more (first hand experience). If you want the best portable AIO, focus on improving the environment around Mojo 2 with at least a Poly and a 5v ifi ipower x for when stationary for another bump up. The H7 and Gryphon will be left far behind (they simply don't scale up as much with improvements).

Also the Mojo 2 has better discrete amplification not to mention EQ than the Gryphon - if you bump up it's source and power supply, the amplification stays out of the way with zero grain and tighter control offering surprising dynamic swings with HD800S. It's bit of a miracle how they managed to put this performance on a tiny board like that.

 

I actually sold my Mojo 2, like you said, it's very Dynamic and it's ability to resolve and place all the sounds in the head stage with no distortion is really amazing. I'll even go so far as to say that it's in the same league as my EF400 which is a big unit but I personally thought that it was a bit bright and fatiguing. I much preferred the warmer, laid-back sound from micro iDSD Signature and EF400 which also offered wider soundstage. At first, I was really amazed by the Mojo 2 which offered a lot of performance for it's size and for it's cost but at the end of the day, it was not really pairing as well with my gear and for my tastes.

There's also the fact that when using USB input, I was not able to make it sound as good as when using Optical Input. Using Airplane mode on my phone or using the RS2 as a source helped a bit but still Optical sounded the best to me. There's not much use for me with the Mojo 2 at a desk cause the EF400 is doing a much better job there so I ended up selling it. I still recommend it to most people who are looking for a highly resolving DAC but for me it's not my cup of tea.

I take it you have heard the H7? If so, what exactly is the difference between the Mojo 2, Gryphon & H7 in sound?

 

I've stated this often and will continue doing because it makes such a huge difference - Mojo 2 must be used with top tier source, optical.. and I mean something like wyred4sound or singxer usb to optical bridge (around 300-500$), with ifi ipower x power supply. For portability Poly gets you most of the way there, but is not the absolute best.
I'd be willing to bet it would beat the EF400 - it's bettered my RME ADI2, Hiby RS6, Apogee Element and slightly outresolves my Dangerous Music Source dac too.

I was unimpressed when I initially got it running it directly over usb from my comp - I even got an Ifi Gryphon hoping to better it which it did for (out of USB). Everything changed essentially when I got the Poly and a wyred4sound bridge - it jumped to the top of the pile and now it's my goto AIO desktop or not.. when used with nice source it's not bright at all, in fact it so grain free that it can sound overly warm and organic at times - but this is just what music sounds without grain, I've been so accustomed to digital artefacts that this grain free accuracy is a shock.

Anyhow - I'm sorry you sold it, I feel perhaps you didn't unleash the kraken that was hiding in the Mojo 2..

H7 sounds reasonable, it's a nice Shanling house sound, and it's competitive for it's price, but if you want to be impressed more so than the Gryphon and Mojo 2 you'll need to pay a lot more imo - and for portables honestly I don't know which one.. I have the Hiby RS6, but the Mojo 2 just out resolves it with less grain, higher dynamics and better imaging precision (putting aside for a minute the different sound sig due to R2R).

Maybe the Hiby RS8 with class A amps perhaps.. or for IEMs only the WM1AM2 sounds like a slighlty more characterful and bouncy Mojo 2, quite nice indeed.. unfortunately for large headphones like HD800S AM2 can't do it properly, sounds like a reasonable but slightly grainy budget amp where Mojo 2 like effortless and smooth class A.

 

I heard N7 in Canjam so take that in account but I highly doubt it will beat Mojo 2 in resolution and detail retrieval. No way. Ya you will get that flavor in Mids but that’s it.

 

The Mojo 2 on it's own isn't really that expensive for me so I can get it again no issues there. For desktop use, I'm happy with the EF400. Even when using Optical Out with Mojo 2 (no reclock or external power), I liked the sound presentation of EF400 with it's wider soundstage and laid-back character which was more to my personal preference. Maybe adding the Wyred4sound or Singxer will improve the Mojo 2's performance a lot but at the moment, that type of use case it's not really appealing to me.

As for portable use, I want to try the H7 once and if that does not satisfy, I'll go back to Mojo 2 cause it seems like the best alternative and it definitely beats other portable DACs like XD-05 BAL, Gryphon, RS2... to my ears when using a somewhat clean source like a DAP with airplane mode enabled. Poly seems a bit overpriced to me for what it does, I don't use Roon and a few people have said that without Roon, there's not much use for Poly, not sure if that's true.

Apart from using Poly, is there anything else that will help improve the sound of Mojo 2 for portable use? or pairing it with a DAP is the only next best thing?

The Sony DAP isn't available here locally and Importing it would raise the cost too much so that's out of the equation. Other DAPs like DX320, ZX-707 are available here but I don't know how they compete against the Mojo 2.

 

Thanks for your post. I've been considering the RS2 and your post moves me closer to a purchase. I already own an NX7 and your description of its sound is accurate. It's very resolving and has top-end bite for sure. I also have a Shanling M6 Pro DAP.

I was, along with the regular usage scenarios for the RS2, considering using my Shanling DAP as a head unit w/RS2 as DAC and maybe also adding line out from RS2 to the NX7 for a 3-tier stack. Have you tried using the DX170 as source with a USB C to USB C OTG connection to the RS2? That would give one a streaming source and the R2R DAC experience together.Thanks again for the great post!