EC Studio

Discussion in 'Eddie Current' started by Negura, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. TMoney

    TMoney Shits on SBAF over at Head-Case to be cool

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    If the stuff about the Studio amp being designed to work with "studio" sources rather than the types of sources used by this community wasn't communicated to buyers beforehand I'd be pretty PO'ed.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Should really be no difference. Craig had the expectation that anything with an XLR output would work with the 600 ohms transformers. Schiit didn't have the expectation the XLR outputs would ever touch anything with 600 ohms. We tested with Gungnir, Yggdrasil (x2), SFD-1, Denon, Moth, Teac DACs. @drfindley's Yggdrasil has no problems at all (there is some variability with current output capability).
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    There is really no such thing as a "studio" source. As mentioned before, we haven't had any problems with any other DACs including Gungnir, and some Yggdrasil's work. Also, as far as I know, the SE input works with Yggdrasil. (I use my Yggdrasil with the SE input). We had no idea that some Yggdrasil's would work, and others wouldn't.

    We understand the frustration, but we are not going to change one part because one DAC's XLR outputs doesn't work with it. This is why we are offering full refunds for this first run - since certain things were unexpected. If Craig won't cover your shipping costs back for the refund, talk to me, I will cover you. I certainly want to make sure this product meets expectations.

    There is some possibility that we may change the part for the third run (units 13 and on), but units 1 to 12 will use the CMLI600. People currently on the list may elect to push themselves further back in line if they feel the CMLI600 will present a problem. However, we have no idea what the wait is for the Tribute interstages and there is no guarantee that we can even continue making these amps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
  4. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    Actually it's two DAC's - Yggdrasil & Gungnir Multibit (selectively of course, some seem to work). Regardless, respect Marv. Offering a full refund is the right thing to do. Though honestly, it'd be great if you could offer an input transformer exchange - even if you charged enough to cover the 600Ohm transformers. Or split the difference. You have customers who had the same expectation as you - that Studio would work with Yggdrasil / Gungnir Multibit. If they shared the cost, why wouldn't EC?
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
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  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    We thought about transformer exchange, but the issue comes down to this:

    The 15k transformers that work don't sound as good as the 600 ohm ones. Yggdrasil brings resolution up a notch from the days of the BA (which used the 15k transformers). IMO, the Yggdrasil's SE outputs (where the differential signal is summed by two FETs) sounds better than the balanced outputs into the 15k transformers. Transformers aren't a free lunch. They roll off and have phase shift at the extremes, and distort on the low end, exponentially with hotter signals. Sometimes a summing circuit will do a better job.

    My advice is to stick with the 600 ohm transformers and wait for Schiit to release an Yggdrasil upgrade. We've already been talking to Schiit. While I cannot guarantee or predict if or when an Yggdrasil upgrade board will happen, the history of Theta / Schiit would seem to indicate that something like this would occur sooner rather than later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
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  6. The Alchemist

    The Alchemist MOT: Schiit - Here to help!

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    ah my dream is to own an Eddie Current amp and this thread makes it worse!
     
  7. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    Honestly - I've come to the exact same conclusion Marv; I think it's good advice. I just think it'd be great (and reasonable) if buyers had a choice of a transformer swap, if desired and willing to share the cost.
     
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  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I agree on the swap idea, at least for people on this first run of 6. Talking with Craig and trying to make that happen. I'm only EVP of Inventory and Sanitation at EC, not CEO. :D
     
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  9. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    Understand Marv - thanks for your efforts here.
     
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  10. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    just about to ask if returned units will be sold at a discount, but then I remembered the Jr. will prolly still be cheaper
     
  11. Negura

    Negura Friend

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    Like lojay I am also interested how the Studio fares compared to the 445 with the HD800s. Marv could you elaborate?
     
  12. Rotijon

    Rotijon Friend

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    Ill be happy to pick up refund units (at a small discount if possible).
     
  13. jacal01

    jacal01 Friend

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    Hooked up my Studio to an M7 this weekend. No distortion or clipping issues to date. Initial impression: Excellent soundstage with open space. Lotsa room for directional and layered sonic placement, at least using speakers in my setup.

    @ Mister Rogers:
    Appears to be a classic case of the other guy's problem. Jason is saying "too fundamental a Yggdrasil design problem for an easy fix, so change the input transformer on the Studio", and of course Craig is saying that his design and component selection is optimized on the 600Ω minimum impedance input signal being driven by the upstream component, or more exactly, the supporting signal gain. But unless EC does come up with an elegant and straightforward revision that doesn't impact amp performance, an additional stage audio component between the Yggdrasil and Studio seems likely.
     
  14. mtoc

    mtoc SBAF's Resident Shit-Stirrer

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    DACing is a long road, you needn't always stick with Yggdrasil....Some of pro DACs are pretty brilliant.
     
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  15. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    Good luck with that. The demand for the studio far outpaces their ability to get the Tributes.

    Another amp maker privately mentioned to me that this thing would run in the $30k+ space easily in the traditional audiophile market. Since EC is primarily internet direct, the price is 1/3 or less of what you'd see if the product distributed through the dealer/distributor model.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    It is what it is, and we certainly don't see it as the other guy's problem. I've spoken to Jason and both of us are taking steps in the right direction. It's possible the Yggdrasil may end up in a Studio environment plugged into 600 ohm transformers. We realized that the 600 ohm transformers, despite their higher quality than the 15k, may not be consumer device friendly.

    The problem is that neither Schiit nor EC can simply snap their fingers and make the problem go away immediately. It will take EC time to find a suitable replacement. We have some candidates, but we would like to test them and listen to them first. And as I've said before, better off using the SE outputs of the Yggdrasil into the SE inputs of the Studio rather than use less than stellar transformers (or transformers that don't work.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
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  17. MisterRogers

    MisterRogers Ethernet Nervosa

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    Yea, to be clear - I've never had any doubts that Schiit & EC would step up. Frustration? oh yea. Waiting over half a year for something, to plug it in and immediately hear distortion... Not a happy moment. We understand the issue now, but right then - was it shipping damage? are my tubes bad? I've been enjoying Studio the past few days again; just needed to understand the cause and take a deep breath.
     
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  18. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    And, to chime in here, there is no easy fix for Yggdrasil or Gungnir Multibit. After some experimentation this weekend, they would require either:

    A. Extensive changes to the overall design--down to the transformer and input choke on the Yggdrasil, power supply and heatsinking, plus new buffers on all-new analog boards, and the acceptance of a reduction in signal to noise ratio (as we would have to go to depletion MOSFETs rather than JFETs in the buffer,) if we wanted to keep the same buffer output topology in Class A into 600 ohms.

    B. An all-new Class AB buffer design on all-new analog boards, which adds additional active stages (and, of course, Class AB operation) at unknown impact on sonics.

    Bottom line? The likelihood that either will happen in short order is nil, and the likelihood that either would happen in the long term is very low. Even if it did happen, it would be a very, very expensive upgrade, as the analog boards are by far the most expensive boards in the chassis (they have the 4 x AD5791 DACs on them).

    Sorry to throw cold water on this, but that's the reality.
     
  19. Mban

    Mban Facebook Friend

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    How about EC selling a current buffer that has XLR in, and XLR out to go between the Yggdrasil/Gungnir Multibit and the Studio?? Or potentially a DIY offering to make things even cheaper?
     
  20. bozebuttons

    bozebuttons Friend

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    Simple solution use a differant Dac.There are other options out there.
     
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