Discussion in 'Speakers' started by shotgunshane, Mar 7, 2017.
@Serious, What would be a good good reverb time for the those RT60 graphs?
I hate the stock alpha in dipole configuration. The Beta generally performs better for me despite the lower Q.
A few of us have bought the PAP eminence woofers for projects as well and had good results.
Noob BLH DIY questions:
+ Assuming you maintain the interior volume of a given speaker design, what affect does changing the thickness of the cabinet material have? Can you use a thinner material to save weight/money without fucking things up?
+ Do plywood cut sheets typically account for the thickness of the blade and small bit of material lost when cutting? If not, how do you account for this?
It’s a few days of intense hassle and smooth sailing until something goes wrong. Overall, it shouldn’t be too crazy, treat it like a Roon endpoint or similar. Volume control can be done via Roon app or Mac mini remote. Of course it’s up to the user to not endlessly tweak driver timing, crossover slopes and listen to music instead...
I get the thrill of keeping it simple, but what hasn’t been discussed before with active solutions - it opens up driver choices by the tenfold, when designing.
P.S. That SEAS A26 kit is hardly orthodox. Here’s why:
Mating a 10” with a dome tweeter, Genelec and Dynaudio have done it, but I find it suboptimal in the lower crossover range
Big dome tweeters can suffer up high, can’t tell if this will
Tweeter crossover low order, limits power handling
Woofer has no filtering
For a beginners first proper speaker I’d recommend something from Gravessens’, Bagby’s or speakerdesignworks.com designs. A do-it-all, if you will. If I hear Marv building an A26, then by all means - the guy knows what he’s getting into and has his reasons. As for someone new, better do a Troels’ 3-way classic.
Depends on material but there's no reason to go beyond 3/4" MDF for any of these designs. I've done 3/4" MDF with bracing for dual decent excursion 18s with huge magnets and never had a problem. Depending on the design and driver for your BLH, you're probably fine with 1/2" MDF from a sturdiness perspective but I didn't say that. There's a lot of wood internal to the cabinet in those designs so you should use the suggested wood thickness or you'll be messing with internal volume.
With regard to blade thickness, you usually take this into account yourself when you're cutting. If someone else is cutting it for you they generally take care of this for you. I hate having to break out the table saw but I know my blade is 1/8" thick and I separate my cuts by at least 1/2" just in case. I can always shave a little off after I'm done but I can't get back 1/8" if I make it too short.
yes, the a26 needs to be listened on axis and ideally in a treated place. in this situation, the "compromise" of a big woofer 2 way far outweight the "off-axis" performance.
^ Yup. BLHs are inherently heroic braced. 1/2" is fine for smaller BLHs. Thicker walls don't hurt a la @JK47 super heroic cabs for the 6.5" Fostex Sigmas.
Despite popularity the Alpha 15 on many Internet builds I've seen, Do not use it. The magnet is pea-sized and therefore bass is uncontrolled. What it does well is bass extension in a OB with the super high Qts, but the compromise is not worth it.
Have not heard Seas A26, but have heard Dynaco A25. It didn't beam. 1.5kHz xover point and shallow slope to the tweeter helps. As far as integration, top and bottom are different, but shallow xover slopes both ways make the transition seamless. Might not be Psalm's thing because decay isn't fast like on metal drivers. Attacks are fast and tight though.
Hey guys - loving this thread lately, I’m learning a ton, although probably 75% is still over my head.
However I’m wondering if there is a better thread for a lot of this discusion within the DIY section rather than filling up this General speaker advice thread (for us non-DIYers, at least not there yet)?
Just a question - no skin off my back either way.
Just remembered that a 10" paper Seas + 1" tweeter is also used for the Devore Audio Orangutan, which has had a bunch of positive reviews lately.
Now I am very intrigued by this kit.
I am intrigued as well. Might be nice for my nearfield setup, i sit about 1,6m/5ft away from the speakers. Reckon it's fine at that distance.
Here is a cheap kit for us EU folk:
Edit oh no cabinet included...
Slap a 1 inch thick slab of birch plywood in place of the front baffle, and 100 coats of lacquer, and you’d have a mini Orangutan O/96
That is a cool looking kit. The cap upgrade options are crazy pricy though!
The notable thing about the Orangutan is its cabinet volume, which squeezes a lot more extension out of the 10in Seas:
Madisound Kit (-2dB @ 70Hz-ish):
DeVore Fidelity Orangutan (-2dB @ 40Hz-ish):
I'd agree to move to the DIY if these kits are really DIY, but they are not. These kits are super easy to put together. Can you use a screwdriver? You'll need to buy and learn how to use a crimping tool. I still suck at this (I'll solder the crimp to make sure). Use screw caps if you can't solder crossover components of which there is exactly one.
Of course, but I think more people are worried about 10 + 1 integration
The Orangutans I heard had a weird midrange timbre and sounded a little scooped. My guess is that it is from the large woofer/tweeter integration.
I’m genuinely intrigued with this kit. Although I’ve never used a crimper or solder gun, I’m keen to learn. Still not a cheap kit though considering the CAD exchange...it would have perform pretty decently to be worth it.
Yup, I wouldn't buy another 10+1 personally. I just wanted to highlight the effect of cabinet volume, since I'm very much opposed to the norm of sticking perfectly capable LF woofers in these trim and tidy little boxes for aesthetics' sake, when in reality they're being choked out of their potential. It sucks.
You answered your own question. Nordic peoples (Seas) pay attention to details such as this. I've heard the A25, I'll bet this modern reimaging of it to be better. The math does say an 8" would be more ideal than 10", but close enough, any maybe not even an issue considering the 6db acoustic (not electrical) slope.
I think you are missing the point.
FULL KIT AND EASY TO ASSEMBLE
I wasn't about to mention "real" DIY projects because it is beyond the abilities (or time) of most people - not to mention that real DIY means imaging your own designs rather than copying someone else's. The Seas A26 kit with cabinet from Madisound comes with all parts needed. If you can put Lego sets together, then you can assemble this kit.
HARDLY ORTHODOX, BUT NOT SUPER-WEIRDO
As for this being "hardly orthodox": this is exactly why I am recommending it - I did mention "flair" after all. People seem to want something speshal, a little different, something unique. I would rather people get this slightly "off-beat" kit (use a little elbow grease, and maybe learn a little) rather than buy the 3" Orcas with speshal upgraded limited time offer Fostex drivers and mystery upgrades for $900 or 15" kinda-full-range-but-with-high-end-roll-off-and-nasty-treble-spike-stamed-by-speshal-alnico-magnets only to have @JK47 burn them in a firepit. The super oddball stuff is fine for experienced people with deep pockets who want to play with this DIYA old-fart-with-massive-hearing-loss garbage for fun. The problem is that there are people who are just getting started and I don't want them to get the wrong idea or start off on the wrong foot. My first recommendation for DIY lite would be the Overnight Sensations MT or MTM. My first recommendation for off-the-shelf would be KEF LS50 or its variants. Maybe a few others. Past these "boring" or "not speshal" designs, the A26 kit with cabinet is a great alternative.
A while back, someone asked me about the Orcas. I recommended the $240 Fostex P1000H kit as a cheap way to found out if this is the direction they wanted to go. The response I got was that the P1000H sounded like shit. This person eventually got the Orcas. Still shit, just a slightly different flavor - but somehow mysteriously better than P1000H (real reason was amplification went from whatever rando amp to an EC ZDT which takes advantage of the resolution of these drivers.) I knew the Orcas were shit (unless level 92 audiophile specialized systems and setups were utilized); but I just shut the fuck up because I didn't want to rain on the FOTM parade. The great thing about SBAF is that it has a protective mechanism. In not much time, members actually put up money to purchase the Orcas so @JK47 could destroy them - just to make a point.
WHY AND WHY NOT
All the criticisms are valid. However, the positives are not mentioned. The 10" woofer is where we are now getting serious with bass. I strongly feel that level 1-5 audiophiles need to experience bass (in their homes, not just at shows) other than from small woofers. The aperiodic damping is going to work better with the speakers closer to the back wall. This makes setups in most rooms, rooms of normal people, not rooms of rapists with acoustic wall treatments, much easier. The design was done by the guys at Seas who make the drivers. Those guys are smart. There is an acoustic 6db / octave slope near the x-over point, achieved by one cap on top and natural roll-off from the paper woofer. While it may not have the modern hi-fi precision of metal or ceramic drivers with steep x-overs, it's going to sound lively with great on-time attacks and scale like mad with fed from better gear. Expect an inherent warmth to the sound along the lines of similar vintage designed that used simple x-overs.
my first speaker was dynaco a25. even with upgraded cap and better tweeter, the A25 is a slow speaker, it has no real dynamics it seems, even the p3esr sounds much faster.
but the a26 use the new seas a26 woofer, should be much more up to speed.
ive decided ill build a pair
I thought the devore 093 was wonderful
the A26 woofer is actually ideal for a small enclosure.
the F3 is around 55hz from the specs iirc
the 10 inch in a normal size room will easily reach to 40hz and even lower, but its not about extension, but mostly how good the bass and upper bass will be due to the large size woofer.
I always knew there was something wrong with me, that I would feel compelled to build and hang burlap covered panels on my walls. Turns out I'm just a rapist!
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