General Speaker Advice and Recommendations

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by shotgunshane, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The cabs might have been too small on the OG A25, dunno anything about those drivers back in the day. I might have even described it as a bit sloppy, but there was certainly a cohesiveness (likely a result of the no x-over and simple x-over design) to the A25 despite concerns about the disparity of the 10" and 1.5" driver sizes. The A26 uses modern drivers. I can't see Seas screwing up on this. I've never heard a sloppy sounding driver from Seas - it's just not in their DNA. The aperiodic loading instead of bass port may take some getting use to for modern listeners used to only hearing ported designs. It's closer to acoustic suspension than ported designs. Less steep roll-off but greater extension may be perceived as less bass.

    I'm very tempted by this. It should be on the loaner program. I might add bracing to the cabs.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  2. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Also, it looks like the tweeter in the Devore O96/O93 is a Morel unit.
     
  3. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    its notable to mention that while the Devore woofer looks a lot like the SEAS a26 woofer, its actually not. the magnet is entirely different. I think it uses the same cone but thats as far as similitude go.
     
  4. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    Yeah, the measured Qts of the beta is quoted as 0.54 or something like that but it extends slightly lower than I assumed through modeling.

    The PAP modded alphas (everything is upgraded including the magnets) is measured at 0.78 but it definitely plays much cleaner than the alphas. Better than the betas in my experience as well (current project is crossed over between 280 and 350Hz depending).

    The 1.26 Qts Alphas perform like shit in real world. Real world performance in OB side by side with the Betas for me resulted in maybe 3dB more output ~40-50Hz with a dramatic trade-off in clarity and quality throughout the rest of the range.
     
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  5. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I think that's down to personal preference. I like a very direct sound and I find that I like an RT60 from 250 to 300ms. Others may prefer 400-600ms.
    The issue is that the upper midrange decays much more slowly than the rest of the range. In my experience this almost always sounds too forward, which is probably also why he preferred the more laid back FR after correction.
    [​IMG]

    I had a very similar issue in my room before I added broadband absorbers at the first reflection points (7cm thick, no air gap). This is also why I had blankets and sheep skin, etc. on my walls before I found a more permanent solution. Obviously first reflection point absorption helps not only with the reverb, but (most importantly) also with the imaging precision, etc.
    This is what the RT60 looked like in my room before I added the absorbers:
    [​IMG]

    And after:
    [​IMG]
    I have a narrow room and have my speakers set up along the long wall, so the change in imaging was drastic. But the tonality also improved quite a bit.

    A tool that I found very useful to calculate the required absorber thickness: http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php
    Note also that my graphs are more zoomed in, but the difference from the ~500Hz region to the 2kHz region is very similar to his situation.
     
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  6. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    Thanks for the explanation. I was looking at Archimago's graph and now your graphs.
    Looking at my RT30 (not RT60) it seems my biggest problems are in the lower ranges and not higher up. I have been wondering if my room might be to "dry", but it is perhaps not.
     

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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Whoa. Dungeon acoustics.
     
  8. Riotvan

    Riotvan Got lost for three weeks at Delft City Hall

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    At least we get a membership jacket. Alexa? Play Creep.
     
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  9. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    So I had a new experience yesterday of going to a dealer to audition speakers, but actually took my own speakers along to be able to compare (specifically ATC SCM19 v2).

    I wanted to hear and compare them to a pair of used Totem Fire bookshelfs at the dealer, which have a somewhat novel design for typical consumer bookshelfs. A 7 inch custom mid-woofer driver that runs up to 5Khz apparently, and then naturally rolls off (no crossover) where the tweeter picks up.

    Anyhow, a very interesting sounding speaker. Very dynamic, with a pretty extended emphasized treble, but didn’t seem quite as bright or annoying as Focal metal domes. A lot of pretty low, strong bottom end for such a small speaker (they’re a smaller cabinet than the ATCs, but have lower bass due to larger driver and a ported design vs sealed). Huge, huge soundstage with a ton of air, but somewhat thin and recessed through the mids. No body or warmth at all and lacking tonal density through the presence region.

    Overall they were decent sounding, and I can see some people liking them, but they were not what I was looking for. That said, the dealer room was not ideal at all, and the setup wasn’t either - the speakers were too far apart and each speaker being compared were very close to each other in a wide room without any treatments - this guy runs his business out of his home actually, so the room has not been designed properly for auditioning IMO. He was running highish end Naim electronics (Uniti Nova I believe). I was confident, based on how I know my speakers sound on some of the test tracks we tried (which I was very familiar with) that the ATCs would stomp the Totems.

    Well I was not correct. The ATCs on some tracks sounded maybe a bit better, and others definitely sounded worse! They had no bass, no warmth, sounded thin and screechy in the treble, and overall not pleasant sounding.

    The room, the Naim electronics, and lack of subwoofer to integrate with, totally destroyed the beautiful sound of those ATCs. The dealer was not impressed by them at all, and neither was I at that point.

    When I got home, I hooked them back up to be able to hear them again in my system, and back came the beautiful sounds. Neutral even tonality, great dynamics, punchy bass, a slight touch of warmth, clear mids and properly extended highs (although a touch of etch on some recordings, which they always have).

    This was a massive eye opener. I’ve always known that listening to something at a dealer or show was not “ideal”, but I didn’t know it could be this bad. Auditioning in someone else’s space (esp. a poor space like this one) and on their system, turned my speakers to shit. So how can I judge other speakers and how they sound at dealers or shows? Answer: I can’t. Yes other dealers may have better rooms and better electronics, but they won’t be MY room, and not on MY system. So much wrong with that situation. Brutal.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  10. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    Maybe start with a RME Fireface UC. If you get hooked you can always upgrade. For the geek in you imagine to change the Xover with some mouseclicks depending on what music you listen to or which mood you are in.
     
  11. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    I do not want to enter the passive/active debate but if you ever get the chance to listen to Neumann KH420, do it. You may find out that with good engineering grat sound is possible using what some consider second rate "ingredients".
     
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    LOL!

    I don't think this is a question of high WAF narrow baffles. The Jamo R909 has two 15", and while one can go crazier than this, I don't see this as a high WAF factor speaker.

    Gravesen is using drivers with way more sensitivity. Particularly the mid-range. That JA8008 has a very high sensitivity, but it starts to roll off slowly around 500 Hz, and for what he wants to do, I would not want to lose any sensitivity given baffle. In a nutshell, it seems he wants to maximize sensitivity, which is not a bad goal at all. But maybe I'm wrong.

    Jamo does not use such a high sensitivity mid-range me thinks. Perhaps there are other trade offs when using the Seas driver instead.

    A project that may approach the R909 closer with one Eminence 15" driver is this:

    http://www.mh-audio.nl/MySystem/Projects/projects.asp#OB

    They are using the JX92, which might be harder to find these days.

    While 94 dBSPL is a relatively high sensitivity, 89 or 90 dBSPL is not wimpy. Particularly for an OB.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  13. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    is that the plan?
    if so, id wait for your impression and from sbaf folks before going forward with the project
     
  14. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    So I decided to take a small chance on some new bookshelf speakers - probably one of the oddest named speakers, but also a bit an unconventional design:

    Reference 3A MM de Capo Be:

    [​IMG]

    7 inch carbon fibre woofer with no crossover on the woofer, and a funky “acoustic lens” in the center. Sloped and “time-aligned” front baffle. Beryllium tweeter with a simple capacitor crossover. 92db efficient apparently, although pretty sceptical about that. Ugly “Nextel” coating, but whatever.

    Picked them up used for a decent deal. Should arrive today. Will compare to ATC SCM19 v2 and Dynaudio Special Forty. Was looking for something more efficient I might be able to use with Aegir when it comes out. We’ll see how they stack up.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  15. Jokko

    Jokko Friend

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    Also interested as my first dyi nearfield build. Is there a place to buy this in EU, with cabinets?
     
  16. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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  17. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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  18. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    I had them before. they look much better in person btw
    great all around. good bass, great imaging, good resolution. only issue was some edginess to the upper mid, but would need to re audition as its been 5 years and i didnt have a treated room back then.
    your lucky enjoy!
     
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  19. murphythecat

    murphythecat Self Imposed Exile

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    I have a pair of SEAS A26 coming my way

    excited!
     
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  20. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    I would really caution people to know what they’re getting into with the SEAS A26. it’s really different. If you haven’t heard the dynaco A25 I’d really caution you to look at other speakers.
     
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