General Speaker Advice and Recommendations

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by shotgunshane, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. drumbo

    drumbo Acquaintance

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    Ok, so first of all, I was looking over the speakers more carefully and discovered that they are actually ADS/Braun L810A speakers, not 710. Sorry, I don't know where I got 710 in my head from. Doh.

    A little research tells me that these are the earliest version of these speakers, from when they were made from imported Braun parts and assembled in the USA. Also, that they are a higher end model than the 710s, and that the only complaint that seems to come up about them is they're too bass heavy! This would support the idea that the room is the problem.

    I know that they haven't been damaged in any way, their only owners have been my dad and me. And they really do sound pretty good. I do think I've been in "upgrade mode," but now I'm inclined to sit with these for awhile and see if I can make some adjustments to the room acoustics.

    As far as a recap... I've definitely never tried anything like that before. I have built some synth modules from kits and I know how to solder, but I don't have much experience reading a schematic or anything like that. I found this description of the process:

    https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/ads-l810-recap.163104/

    And it sounds like he saw a big improvement, but damn if it doesn't sound difficult, even for someone who knows what they're doing. With this model you have to go in through the front by removing the woofer just to get at the board, among other things. But maybe I'll give it a shot eventually.

    Long story short I'm sticking with the speakers I have for awhile and I'm going to work on the room. Thanks for the advice everyone! You may have saved me a ton of money :)
     
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  2. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    You will never get smooth bass response across a room without extensive effort. It sounds like you're mostly happy with the sound and just want a little more oomph because you're in a bass dead zone. A little bit of adjustment for room acoustics is always good, but at minimum all you need to do right now is move your listening spot. Do your walkaround, and find a spot nearby where the bass feels better. Point the speakers there, shove the couch over, is that ok? If not, repeat a couple times. If there's nothing satisfactory within a short radius, move the speakers a foot to the side, maybe some forward or back, try again.

    To save time and your back, get a couple of these to roll the speakers around: https://www.harborfreight.com/3-wheel-wood-dolly-68902.html

    Do you feel your bass nulls come in rows or columns across the room? (or sometimes both) That might help determine which way to shove things.
     
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  3. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Another arrow in the quiver for dealing with room issues is knowing where your particular room's "danger zones" and "sweet spots" will be. This isn't rocket surgery:

    https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

    It's pretty simple physics. Use a calculator to get a good sense, then adjust position in small increments until happy. Also note that the vast majority of folks have a room node around 40-70Hz since we all have 8-10' ceilings in our homes.
     
  4. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    You don’t really need a schematic for the crossover rehab. Just pull them out if possible and check the values on the caps. Replace with same value. They’re probably electrolytics and should be replaced with some film caps if the value isn’t too huge. If they are you could still just replace with another electrolytic and even consider a bypass cap. Experimenting is fun. It’s all for science. Guaranteed that those 25-40 year old electrolytics don’t measure like when they were new.
     
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  5. squishware

    squishware Friend

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    Took advice aimed at others and let go of my OCD for symmetry and centered my desk and sub in the space. It looks bad but sounds much better. I am facing a window but the window is off center. The stereo image came in bigger than ever and bass I did not know I was missing showed up. I think to make it to the next level will require actual measurements, so microphone is added to the wishlist.
     
  6. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    room calculator can only help so much, the only way to find the best speaker and LP is with a mic.
     
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  7. drumbo

    drumbo Acquaintance

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    Yeah that's exactly it... I'm very happy with the sound overall but some small part of it seems scooped out.

    I won't get some time to move things around for a couple days, but I did download a test tone CD and walked around and it was pretty intense. I knew that the bass was supposed to completely cancel out in certain spots but it's just crazy to find a spot where certain frequencies completely disappear. I didn't get the impression that the nulls were in rows or columns, just that different tones had different dead spots scattered around. (it's not an exact rectangle, there is a small window bay on one side.) The most interesting thing for my purposes is that my current listening spot sounds really good up until I reach around 70 Hz. From there up to 90 something Hz is a null, not completely cancelled out like in some other spots, but much quieter. So I assume those are the frequencies that are missing from my music, and that seems to agree with what I'm hearing when I listen to actual music.

    My ability to fix this with positioning might be more limited than I'd hoped... When I explained to my wife what I was planning on doing I discovered that she REALLY likes the layout of the room right now. She loves music too, I thought she'd understand :)

    But at least I sort of know what I'm dealing with and can try to make what tweaks I can to improve things. It seems like this may be one of those "fix one problem, create another" type of things that I could make myself completely crazy with so perhaps some degree of acceptance is the answer...

    That calculator is fascinating. And what it calculates as the sweet spot pretty much agrees with what I've read is the rule of thumb for a rectangular room... aim the speakers down the length of the room and position yourself 1/3 of the distance from the speakers or 1/3 from the back wall. X marks the spot. Of course, that would mean changing the layout of the entire room, which I would totally love to try, but can't, for the reason I mentioned earlier. So I'll have to make the best of it.
     
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  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Disconnect one speaker and see if the nulls are in the same spot. That will tell you if it's predominantly a speaker or room interaction.

    Plan A: Move the speakers 3 inches per week until your listening spot is no longer in a null

    Plan B: Get a sub that you can disguise as a side table next to the couch. Adjustable level and phase would be useful here.
    Plan B2: if you really need to hide it, you can try a skinny sub (like a Paradigm MilleniaSub for example) that you can tuck behind the tv or even under the couch
     
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  9. Renekton

    Renekton Acquaintance

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    Last few pages of this thread are insane. But @Armaegis hit close to home for me - it is outstanding advice, however, I would like to share that I am personally now in an existential crisis from not knowing when to stop with the room games. Allow me to illustrate my experience:

    [​IMG]

    This was not ok. My audio OCD got worse then - not better. (BTW mom hated the mess, loved the sound - big, bouncy bass)

    After that I made this:

    [​IMG]

    It was a nice, cozy place. And it was a speaker setup, too. It even got to sound good when I had moved the chairs, sorry, speaker stands, 8 inches forward. (Mom loved the place, was not impressed by the very up front imaging, though). I miss that place. I deleted it. My exacerbated OCD/mania would not let me leave it alone. So the room decoration eventually got exploded again - to the, once more, drastic point where I could not simply rearrange anymore - a hard reset (cleanup) was needed. My small willpower broke. I then came up with my midlife crisis "flash of brilliance", and I really mean, my "I'm now a unicorn so I should dye my hair and buy a Miata" type of moment - https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...f-your-speaker-system.480/page-38#post-283631

    (I really don't feel like learning to hyperlink right now)

    Now I'm ultra burnt out on audio, so my center channel based idea is in limbo. Stuck. Day after day I play Honkai Impact and Vainglory, I eat and I sleep. BTW, at least I got to meet some nice girls in Honkai Impact lobby. One of them became my play-pretend girlfriend, we virtual cuddle. When would it be appropriate to ask her to meet IRL? We are already on the twitter correspondation phase.

    Life is tragic.

    So, yeah, read more, drool over expensive toys less and play with what you have, but maybe not excessively so, unless burning out and quitting is one of the goals.
     
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  10. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    [​IMG]

    You're turning your room into a modernist art exhibit.

    LOL @ the mattress on the speakers and boxers(?) hanging up there.

    Buddy go see a therapist. This ain't healthy.
     
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  11. drumbo

    drumbo Acquaintance

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    Thank you @Renekton for illustrating quite graphically the danger of traveling too far down this road. Be well
     
  12. drumbo

    drumbo Acquaintance

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    Turns out a minor tweak this morning did the trick... moved the speakers a few inches back toward the wall and my listening position about three feet forward and the bass is back, escaped the null while the imaging and soundstage is retained. Sounds damn good, now I just have to either convince her to move the couch forward or sit on the front edge of it and practice my upright posture. Very happy right now, thanks for all the tips.
     
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  13. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Following up here with more recent impressions.

    Recent local demos in greater Boston area:

    PSB Imagine T3
    • Heard at a local shop on a DCS Bartok streamer into a Simaudio integrated.
    • Clean and clear sound. Vocals don't sound "real" to me.
    • Pretty neutral frequency response, but a little grating. This grating quality came through multiple recordings, typically on electric guitars.
    • Good depth to the soundstage, and relatively easy to pick out individual parts. Less easy to do so on busier rock songs, particularly with rapidly moving bass guitar parts buried a bit in the mix.
    • Soundstage width was kind of weird, though could have been setup. Sound-from-the-speaker effect, kind of three-blob.
    • There are three woofers, each ported separately. Bass seemed a little boomy and uncontrolled. Had three feet behind the ports, which is about two feet more than I could swing. Don't want to mess around with port bungs and measurements for the rest of my life.
    • Black would look OK, but the grills fasten via pegs and they look kind of cheap compared to a few others I've demoed.
    • Not for me. If anyone wants a cherry pair at a pretty good price, look on Audiogon at Goodwin's High End in Waltham, MA.
    Devore Fidelity Gibbon Super 9
    • Same room as above, but on a Gryphon Diablo 120 integrated.
    • Very resolving!
    • Not enough bass or midbass impact. Rock sounds a bit soft and hollow because of it.
    • Amazing midrange clarity. Very easy to follow rhythm guitar parts.
    • Cymbals didn't sound like metal. A little soft and hazy, despite being very well resolved (think the little vibration gradations after initial strike).
    • Vocals weren't forward, but not sure I'd call them "recessed".
    • Soundstage was a bit too much from the speakers again, though could have been setup. I also noticed it was kind of arced, with the center image a bit artificially high and then back down pretty directionally to the tweeters on the speakers.
    • Not for me.

    Road trip demos over the last couple days (CT and PA):

    Canton Reference 5K
    • Chain: Esoteric streamer/DAC and an Estoteric F-07 integrated amp.
    • Very detailed and pretty neutral frequency response.
    • This was at the dealer's house and he was sitting right there, so kind of awkward. Couldn't really try many of the tracks I wanted to. He wanted to talk a lot.
    • From what I heard, the tonality of these were not great. They sounded very "crisp" and were kind of annoying to listen to. Not really frequency response aberrations that I could hear, probably from the ceramic/metal construction of the drivers.
    • Not for me. If anyone wants to check these out, look on Audiogon and there's a dealer in CT selling his demo pair for a decent price. Bad resale value for Canton in the US.
    Dynaudio Contour 30
    • Chain: Innous streamer, Chord DAC with a Chord M-scaler (whatever that does), Simaudio Moon Evolution 600i (not sure if v2 or not), and Analysis Plus cables.
    • Much more of a relaxing listen, and pretty good bass. Would definitely want the Contour 60 though with the two 9" woofers per side.
    • Midrange sounded a bit recessed. Likely part of the tuning to make them more listenable.
    • The Esotar2 tweeter was detailed but also a bit soft sounding. Cymbals did not sound as much like metal, but think this was also part of the trade-off to make them more listenable.
    • They sounded very "big" and "tall". Maybe a bit too much. Similar to the larger Maggies in that regard. From what the dealer said, the Contour 60 is even more of this. I sit maybe 9 feet from the speakers, so this could be annoying.
    • Great depth in the soundstage, and we had the front baffles only around 2 - 2.5 feet from the front wall (as that's about what I'd have to do at home). Pretty impressive in that respect.
    • I love the grey oak finish, but my wife hates it. Looking at the black pictures online, don't think they look as good as the Aerials or Focals (discussed below).
    • In my top 5.
    Focal Electra 1028
    • Chain: a Meridian streamer (and I assume DAC), and a Luxman 509 integrated. Audioquest cables.
    • These speakers sounded the most like my Utopia headphones of any speakers I've heard (including Kanta No. 2). Very detailed, but surprisingly smooth and not harsh in the treble like the Kantas were. Could have been due to the Luxman pairing as well. Nothing like the Kanta No. 2 mess I heard at Natural Sound (local shop to me).
    • Pretty surprising bass response from the two 6.5" woofers, but would definitely want the 1038 with its three 7" woofers. Dealer didn't have a 1038 open and didn't want to open so they could continue to sell as new.
    • Pretty great imaging.
    • Very fast and snappy.
    • Listened to for over two hours, sometimes at 90 dB volumes on recordings like Weezer or a band from Utah called The Used. Started to get a little hearing sensitivity / loss after maybe three hours, so backed volume down a bit for safety. :) (I like to demo speakers loud so that I can hear any deficiencies better. Don't want to be surprised one day cranking it in the future when we have a dedicated listening room. Most of our listening now is in the 70-75 dB range or so, while our toddler sleeps. Can't use the Utopias much above 80 dB for long, which is probably a good thing for long-term hearing health. :))
    • Great resolution. Very transparent.
    • Sounded very much like live music at these higher levels, but still sounded good at lower levels.
    • One concern is the grills/protection. Be tweeter grill is pretty easily removable as it's held in place magnetically, but pretty weakly. Toddler has been good around speakers so far, but another potential failure point. Aerial 7T have a magnetic grill that covers the entire front faceplate, and the magnets are pretty strong.
    • In my top 3. Appeal to me from a technical perspective and to have similar sound signature between speakers and headphones. Think these would be good for home theater use as well.
    Revel Performa F208
    • Same setup as above. I've heard the F228 Be before, I think on a McIntosh amp. Nothing stood out to me about their sound then, and I liked them more than the Kanta No. 2 in the same room. But pretty forgettable.
    • Compared to the Focals, these were more laid back. Less forward and clear in the midrange. Less detail in the treble. Cymbals sounded a bit hazy and less defined, less reverberation and real metal sound. Disappointing in that regard.
    • Everything a bit more on a flat plane, not as much depth. Off-axis performance was pretty great though, and their soundstage may have been a little wider than the Electras.
    • Two 8" woofers so bass extension was pretty good. Don't think it was that much better than the Focals though.
    • Was done in about 20-30 minutes or so. Knew they weren't for me, just like with the F228s.
    Dali Rubicon 8
    • Same setup as above. Never heard of these before, though I've seen the Dali name online. Danish company. Three 6.5" drivers with wood pulp cones, each rolled off at a different midbass/midrange frequency. 1.25" soft dome tweeter, plus a ribbon tweeter that comes in around 13 kHz.
    • After the initial demo, we put the Electra 1028 and these side by side and switched between them a couple times. The differences between the Dalis and the Focals were:
      • The sound was bassier and much more grounded and weighty. Earthy vs. more lean/snappy.
      • Great detail. LOVED how these sounded with acoustic guitar and piano. Very rich and felt like I could hear the wood resonance. Piano made me emotional on a few tracks. That happened on one track for a bit with the Focals.
      • Much more high frequency treble response here. Never harsh (presumably due to soft dome and ribbon), but definitely could hear it. I'm not sure which treble presentation is more natural between this and the Focals. Dalis felt a little artificially elevated to me.
      • Overall impression of the frequency response of these speakers was like a loudness button was pressed. The bass extension was a bit better and had a little more punch. More treble extension as well, but probably didn't like the treble frequency response as well.
      • Tonality was a bit better with these as noted above. Little more relaxed sounding, maybe just due to lack of a very slight Beryllium edge in favor of wood pulp and soft dome tweeter.
      • Image presented by these was a little wider and taller. They are designed to be played without toe-in. Focals weren't a truncated image by any means, this was just grander.
      • These speak more to the heart in a way (given the FR and tonality), whereas the Focals speak more to the brain. I enjoyed both for music, but given that both the bass and the treble stood out to me on these I think that over time that could annoy vs. a more neutral frequency response. Alternatively, the Focal's comparatively more metallic tonality could annoy over time compared to the more natural tonality here.
    • Thing I don't like is they are not on closeout or any special deal, so would be around $6,200, normally around $7,000. Per Hifishark, used pairs have sold in the $3,500 - $4,000 range. So more of a hit if I decide I don't want them later. They also don't look as good as the Aerials or Electras. My wife thinks the black Aerials look the best of all of them.
    • Though these had extra bass punch/extension from the three 6.5" woofers as compared to the Electra 1028s, I feel I could make up all/most of that difference by just going with the Focal Electra 1038, with the three 7" woofers. Then the bass/foundation would be on a more even playing field, and I'd have what I think is a more natural treble response.
    • In my top 3. Appeal to me from a richness/tonality perspective, which also makes me nervous long-term compared to something more neutral, especially with home theater use.
    Don't remember comparatively how the Aerial 7T sound as it's been many months, but plan to demo again this week on the same tracks. I've discovered some new music recently and have been listening to that more on these recent demoes. Aerial 7T use a soft dome ring radiator and a papyrus cone midrange, so might have more of the Dali-type natural tonality, with the extension of those two 7" Scanspeak woofers.

    At this point, with speakers I've heard, it's between the 7T and the 1038. I'd prefer not to order the Contour 60s without hearing them, especially as there are no great deals now and so a riskier financial proposition. They are also more physically imposing height-wise, which I'm sure my wife would not love.

    Edit:
    Current list of frontrunners is:
    • 1. Aerial 7T
    • 1. Focal Electra 1038 (extrapolating from 1028 I heard)
    • 2. Dali Rubicon 8
    • 3. Dynaudio Contour 60 (extrapolating from Contour 30 I heard)
    • 4. Probably the Aerial 6T, though implicit in this list is my Maggies given it's what I've been trying to replace and finding it relatively difficult to do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM
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  14. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Dude, I was gonna say maybe it's time to take a break and find a girlfriend or something, but then...

    Y'know what, you do you man. Just be safe, make sure you're not getting catfished, go get your ocd freak on in other creative ways and for schiit's sake wrap it up before you go dipping in crazy.
     
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  15. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I know this is more difficult to pull off than it sounds since you won't have a chance to audition prior to purchase, and, DIY and all, but if you feel like the Ariel 7T is tits, it might be worth bugging Rick at Selah Audio to see what he could put together using those drivers - he's been doing a lot of stuff lately with those SB Acoustics mid-range/midbass drivers and feedback from a lot of the DIY forums suggest that they're excellent value for the money.
     
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  16. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

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    im glad you got rid of the mess on the first picture. bed matress and drapes are very deficient when it comes to room treatment. you also dont need treatment on every space available, simply covering the early reflection points with real absorbers, be diy using Roxul safe and sound or buy Gik stuff would work. Drapes covering every wall is not room treatment cause it doesnt absorb nearly low enough.

    the first step for anyone interested in room treatment-speaker placement must buy a cheap measurements mic. Something like the minidsp umik-1 would be very helpful moving forward.

    good luck!


    @zonto , epic journey! Ill be very interested of your thoughts comparing Aerial 7t, focal 1038 and Dynaco contour 60!
     
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  17. jlucas

    jlucas Rando

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    Paradigm Reference Studio 100s measured with UMIK-1 & REW (Room Eq Wizard since search can't find 3 letter acronyms!).
    No signal modification, no subwoofer.
    Peanut gallery thoughts before I start messing with DSP & room treatment?

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Presuming that measurement is at your listening position - are the fronts of your speakers about 5'6" from the front wall? If so, moving them about a foot closer will cause the null around 50 Hz to move up and cancel the peak around 75. Then listen to see if it sounds any good. If the result seems too sub-bassy and you're sitting close to the back wall, move forward if room/furniture/family allow.

    I gather from your previous post that room is partly open into another so it's probably not that simple, but it could be worth trying for starters.

    And I don't think you need a subwoofer!
     
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  19. jlucas

    jlucas Rando

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    I appreciate the reply. Yes, mic at the main listening position. The speakers are 2.5ft from the wall they are positioned on which puts them in fairly close proximity to the front of the entertainment center/TV stand for high WAF; I can play with moving to see what it does to the curves but further out is likely to get veto'd. The room is rectangular but a mess -> high vaulted ceiling, fr wall (17ft) has the stereo/tv, RH wall (13.5ft) has stone fireplace with insert, back wall is half a real wall and other portion is 1/2 wall to kitchen with a walk through, LH wall an open staircase to the upstairs with open loft and partially open to the front entrance foyer where it meets the front wall. How is that for a combination of things! Agree sub it not "needed" for most everything but I do have a Velodyne HSG-18 (set at 40 hz) for real sub base on movies.

    I borrowed a buddy's Studio 10s that he has for sale to test for using somewhere in the house. Here's how they test sitting on top of the 100s in the main room (so they are a little heigh but I don't have stands for them):
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Hmm. Ceiling reflection? Can you get away with moving your listening position a bit closer?
     

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