HiFiMan Deva (and the assumptions behind the HE5XX)

Between this and the CSDs, I'm surprised anyone in this price category opts for orthos.

That being said, you haven't mentioned which you prefer. I suspect it all depends on how bad that 13kHz spike is. If it's liveable, Deva, if not, HE5XX.

Also, how is the Deva in wireless mode via your phone?

 

I haven't tried the Deva in wireless mode yet. Will get to that later.

In respect to how Deva (with Deva pads) sounds compared to HE5XX, I would have to give the edge to the HE5XX. What I'm hearing subjectively loosely matches up with the measurements above, but I think it would be interesting to take a measurements on the miniDSP EARS. The EARS doesn't seal as well as my trusty ol' "Scraps", therefore the EARS could be more reflective of what I am hearing in one respect. Here are my observations:

1. The Deva sounds more midbassy and more cloudy. We have established with reasonable certainly that Fs of the Deva in higher in frequency. I am suspecting that on my head with a less than perfect seal, the effective Fs may be moved up, which almost always results in a small bump as well. This is the most immediate and biggest difference. More midbassy, more cloudy, less clean.
2. I doubt the cause of the above is distortion - after all the Deva does have lower distortion past 200Hz and below 200Hz, the HE5XX is better, although only marginally. The cloud or upper bass or lower mid region would have to be infected by the second and third harmonics from 100-200Hz. So I am suspecting frequency response or linear distortion is the cause. I will come back with EARs measurements to confirm.
3. The Deva does not extend as low. The third drop at 37Hz on Doin' It Right is muted on the Deva compared to the HE5XX. Similar experience with the 40Hz drops on Jennifer Warnes Rock You Gently.
4. The HE5XX has more edge (minor in effect) and is crisper. This could be it having more 8kHz or maybe this is something that can be found in the burst response.
5. I am not sure that the 13kHz peak is as much as it measures when pinna and concha are in play. I guess what I am trying to say that I'm not sure I detecting any mosquitos. Perhaps the increase is marginal over the HE5XX? I am not the best person to attest this as I am in my 50s, and I won't bullshit you guys how I have perfect hearing up to 20kHz like on HF, especially when my son can much more easily hear katydids 12kHz-20kHz+ in the wild. One thing I can definitely say is that the mid-treble and air region have a much less artificial timbre than that of the Focal Elear (with the metal dynamic driver and all). The Elear was all shhh shhh shhh shh and all.

We are at 0.5% distortion which is high, but we're still talking -45db down, and at loud levels. Let's keep in mind that Amir failed to noticed a lot of odd-order distortion -40db down from the plate amp in the JBL LSR305 of which he oozed so much love. The distortion in this case is mostly second order and could be a reason for that sheen of warmth. FWIW, internal warmth is very subtle. IMO, I think "high" second and third order distortion in the bass is more audible than mostly second order in the mids and highs. Finally, it may be interesting to look at the dynamic distortion measurements, that is taken at different SPLs, which I have started to do.

The little ripples throughout the frequency ranges in the CSDs have been seen before in other headphones, but they are higher than typical here. This is discussed here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...iew-and-measurements.10082/page-4#post-323469

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I am with @Taverius as to why people go for these entry-level orthos. At the risk of sounding like an elitist, I will say that the strengths of the HD650 or HD600 aren't immediately apparent and are more subtle. I can see myself when I started with headphones in the early 90s, having a STAX Lamba Pro Signature System and Sennheiser HD540 Reference, not knowing anything about vintage orthos, totally going bonkers over stuff like this. Some of these bargain orthos do stuff that neither the HD540 (and HD650) or STAX Lambda do well; and that is fairly clean extended bass to 30Hz with heft. I could care less about anything below 35Hz. Headphone folks place way way too much unnecessary emphasis on needing to reach 20Hz. Bass quality will be the most immediate thing that entry level audiophiles will notice. It takes a while to get that music "lives in the mids" (which of course should be taken figuratively).

In regards to the HD650 or HD600, I can listen to them from wimpy amps or the headouts of the MOTU now because I've learned to appreciate them after hearing them on TOTL uber toob setups. How many years did that take? Also, one thing I want to point out is that the HD600 is less cloudy sounding than the HD650. I'm just saying this because a lot of people have exposure to the HD650 via the HD6XX, of which Drop has sold millions. However, the caveat is that the HD600 doesn't still extend as well in the bass as bargain orthos.

 

He's just smart. It happens sometimes.

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@cameng318: I'm appreciative that you pointed some of this stuff out in regards to these low Z orthos. I know the use of the Vali 2 with the HD5XX was asked in the HE5XX thread, and I could see a possible issue:

Vali 2 high gain is 6-ohms Z out. That only means a big chunk of voltage is being wasted when powering stuff like the Verum or HE5XX. Could be a bad idea running these headphones hard from the Vali 2 at high gain for extended periods.

Now to be real, I don't see anyone at SBAF doing anything dumb, running at unrealistic levels for extended periods of time with bass boost. The failure mode I can most envision is maybe running these headphones hard for an extended period of time where the thermals get out of control (these small amps don't have the output devices heatsinked.) That is no explosions, but rather slow meltdowns, and maybe the smell of burnt plastic. Although sometimes opamps and chips do crack, pop, and smoke! LOL, I've done that before.

P.S.

At some point, I think a good article on impedance, gain, power, V = IR, P=V^2/R is in order; Sesame Street style so it's digestible. People are starting to understand, but there are still a lot of misconceptions, e.g. not enough power when it's not enough gain, my headphone amp will do 22W into Sennheisers, etc.

Xbass on iFi...

 

I do have another channel on the Deva, the L one, that hasn't been measured yet.

I would argue that if the unit-to-unit variations (all things being equal such as the pads) were so inconsistent in that they resulted in such differences seen in the 1) shark-fins; 2) FR/CSD peaks; 3) distortion; and 4) Fs, then something is invariably broken. To think otherwise is bordering on conspiracy theories talk.

While I've seen more variation in the higher-end HiFiMan stuff, presumably because they are pushing limits of the "nano" diaphragms, my experience with their lower-end stuff has shown them to be rather consistent - far more consistent than the American ortho manufacturers. China can do certain things very well.

 

There is the Deva FR on the EARS, but with 1/24 octave instead of the usual 1/6 octave. This is the full set now with both L and R channels. Previously I only had the R channel data.

HFM Deva
Frequency Response
MiniDSP (with SBAF comp)
1/24 octave smoothing


HFM Deva (GRN/RED) Compared to Drop HE5XX (GRY)
Frequency Response
MiniDSP (with SBAF comp)
1/24 octave smoothing


Deva has higher Fs near 85Hz with corresponding lift in the mid bass to lower mids where the "shark-fins" are taller. HE5XX extends deeper with Fs near 50Hz and overall lower amplitude from 90Hz to near 1kHz. There is where I am really hearing the difference subjectively. In the highs not so much difference other than what I mentioned of the HE5XX being marginally more crisp, more defined, more sibilant even. Huge 13kHz spike is there on the Deva, but I didn't really notice it all that much - but please keep in mind reduced sensitivity to this area on the account of my age.

 

This is the impedance for the other channel. Impedance is slightly higher at 19.86-ohms (the other channel was 17.77). This variability is be normal for "modern" traces. Note Verum can be off by a few ohms! However, the important take away is that the free-air Fs bump is at the same frequency near 150Hz.

L channel impedance


Here in the differences in output level between 5XX and Deva, both using 5XX pads for apples-apples. The volume knob was not adjusted. I think it's fair to say that their sensitivity (and efficiency) are more or less the same.

 

I've been in an investigation frame-of mind-recently for my RL job. I'm sure you guys know what I do. Solving the puzzle, finding out what, when, why, obtaining evidence, scouring logs, interrogating (interviewing) suspects, and then laying it all out. It's a PIA, but also kind of fun, and rarely is 100% assurance of what really happened obtained.

Did you guys know that guys in motorcycles working in tandem in major cities in the EU/UK will swipe cellphones from the hands of unwitting victims who are texting as they cross the street or stand by a corner?

 

I'm happy to eat crow on this one. Looks like the HE5XX is NOT just a rebadged Deva!

 

In the end, you did everyone a service, Drop, potential buyers, and silenced the haters.

 

Drop's marketing department can improve on their product nomenclature to distinguish rebranded same products with different cosmetics such as K7XX, H6XX, etc. and custom (or tweaked) products such as HE4XX, HE5XX, TH-X00, and HD58X. The HD58X was what started all this confusion, as the HD58X had nothing do to with the HD580 and was actually closer to the HD660S.

Drop should clarify their naming for their own sake because people in general are stoopid and read way too much into product names, and also because Internets people love to hate, but still buy from Drop. Me, I don't believe anything about what products are named, therefore I don't have expectations one way or the other to ever get mad. I was told that the HE5XX kinda, sorta, maybe sounded like the OG HE-500 and I simply agreed with this assertion after hearing it, while also pointing out the differences from the OG HE-500.

 

• HE5XX reminds me of the OG HE500 with Jerg pads, except HE5XX is less thick, less hefty, and "faster"
• Deva reminds me of the OG HE500 with its thick upper bass and mids. But Deva also doesn't remind me of the OG HE500 because Deva has noticeably less bass extension and an slight mid-bass bump.