HiFiMan SUSVARA "Review" and Measurements

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, May 27, 2017.

  1. spartacus

    spartacus New

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2017
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    NYC
    your amp is more than powerful enough....that isnt a problem,you just like the sound of an electrostatic and that is fine....I love the sound of the susvara and also love the sound of the sr1a...go figure
     
  2. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    I would guess 5w at 50hms is enough for pretty much anything, bar maybe boosted bass with drum and bass at high volumes, lol.

    And yeah, the Susvara doesn't need ORFAS gear, though you can certainly go that route and I can understand why some do. I actually have had great results with a couple various older receivers/integrated amps, and my favourite pairing is with the Kinki EX-M1 (so far!) I'd really like to hear them with a Ragnarok 2 (heck even a Rag 1, as that could be a serious solution at bout $800 used currently) or Vidar/Saga combo, and other more affordable speaker amps, as I really do feel that the Susvara and driving it "properly" isn't so much about dollar signs, but synergy and ample power :)

    The Susvara being available in the 3000s (especially used) vs. 6000 is a serious pair of headphones and worth the effort of trying to find a good powerful pairing amp if you blow most of your budget on the headphones. It can be done!
     
  3. shabta

    shabta Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    @Rthomas I am not convinced about your amp. There's some x-factor with amps and susvara, far more than almost any other headphone. I think I pm-ed you that I spent several hours in very quiet shop in amsterdam. I found the susvara way better than any headphone excpept the HE1. I tried shangra-las (both sucked), whatever the most expensive abyss is, the utopia, the raal etc. The susvara, when powered by the right amp was not as good as the HE1 but roughly in that league. The staging of the Utopia sucks. The raal sounded totally light wieght by comparision. The Abyss wasn't etheral, but had stronger bass. The ethereal quality of the susvara, this really delicate expression of the highs through upper mids was estat (HE1 or Orpheus) like. I live happily with the SR007 and I like it better than the 009 so that could explain everything LOL. But if I were you I'd at least try to find a more powerful amp that delivers a lot of current.

    Yes the susvara isn't built like a tank. But it is also way lighter and much more comfortable than the planar competition, so I think that's a reasonable tradeoff. The big thing I worry about is the longevity of any hifiman product. Anyway I also think the price is stupid. But you need to find the right amp, and I don't think you've found it. You might still like the 009 better, everbody is weird :p. But you'll at least understand what makes the Hifiman so special.
     
  4. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,989
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    United kingdomland of fish and chips
    Susvara build quality does kind of suck, I have to make a warranty claim because the gimbal keeps jumping while on my head, seems to be an issue with some units made last year. The reason why I'm not too hard on Susvara quality is because all the other flagships have issues that I've experience directly or read about multiple times:
    - Abyss 1266 rubber rings breaking and above average driver issues
    - ZMF wood issues
    - Utopia driver issues and lettering falling off
    - LCD 4 driver issues and gap tolerances.

    At least Susvara and to an extent hifiman has a very good track record for driver reliability, we like to pick on it because of the horrible price but as long as it delivers SQ wise I can't say I care. All flagships have issues, just of the top my head, the Tesla model S had some horrific cosmetic issues not found even on 20K Toyotas.
     
  5. Huhnkopf

    Huhnkopf Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Yeah, my Susvara loaner cups spun like Katharina Witt during her golden years. It really didn't inspire confidence.
    However it being a demo model that semed to have been sent to many outlets here in Germany might explain it.

    The sound however is still my absolute favorite, over anything else I auditioned or owned (HE-1000SE, Verité, Abyss TC, LCD-4 etc.). If it wasn't for the price I'd have owned it already. I still long for it.
     
  6. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Likes Received:
    3,157
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Evanston, IL
    Home Page:
    Pairing a Jotunheim 2 with an HE6se (balanced) sounds strained to me, and that's 50 ohms: 4W RMS per channel. IMHO it's worth the effort to try different pairings even when the numbers seem to justify not needing to.
     
  7. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    980
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Maybe you're right. To my ears the headphones didn't sound under driven at all.

    I found the susvara way better than any headphone excpept the HE1 - I think this could be a valid statement if EQ is not used. With EQ the SR009S was simply better to my ears. Maybe Susvara pulls away with a speaker amp. I'll probably never know.... I guess I like the unique Stax presentation + EQ. I can totally understand somebody preferring the Susvara.



    What amp were they using in the store?
     
  8. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,989
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    United kingdomland of fish and chips
    Specs are overrated just like THD measurements, Susvara in theory needs 51mW for 100SPL composed of 1.75Vrms and 30mA of current, that's almost nothing and anything these days can drive them yet in practice there's either a secret sauce or something that makes it so picky of amplification. Either way no one ever uses more than 1W with Susvara or any other headphone for that matter in its rated impedance.

    I'm a low volume listener typically and rarely go over 90dB, if power was everything the Project Ember would sound the same on any tube yet a 6N6P really pulls ahead even compared to the most overprices telefunken or siemens tubes for Susvara.

    I'm building my end game tube amp specifically for susvara and I'm looking for power reserve current wise and at most twice the voltage for my max listening level. It's calculated for about 1.2W which is more than plenty. I tried a 120W/8Ohm Harman Kardon power amp and all that power really does nothing to wake it up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  9. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Toronto, ON, Canada
    That is a good point about other Hifiman cables as well. I hated HEKv2 cables, their look mostly of overcooked noodles, and spent money on a great looking Cardas XLR cable. After like six months I realized that I listened to HEKv2 less and less, it was flat and boring. That was strange because that was not what I remembered. The change when I put back the stock cable was so obvious, my old HEKv2 were back, natural timbre of acoustic instruments, superb resolution and microdynamics.
    I upgraded to HEKSE I still do not like the look of the cables, but I do not think that they limit performance. Or maybe the Cardas cable was really bad. In any case make sure that you "upgrade" to the cable that is at least as good as the stock.
     
  10. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,989
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    United kingdomland of fish and chips
    The modern upgrade cables are mostly bad IMO in the long run. Almost always going to thicker gauge which can have unpredictable results and sometimes more bloated bass even if it appears fuller. Thicker cable results in lower resistance and also higher capacitance occasionally. It's a balancing act and I always make a point to use the stock cable for judgment for better or worse.

    Doing very extensive experiments with HD650 including a super high end norne silver cable and having spent over 3K overall for cables I find the stock cable is the best overall for the senns and while any upgrade cable may appear better at first in the long run I've always switched back to the stock OFC one and now there's nothing else I'd use.

    I really, really like the HEKSE and still pondering getting it again as a high sensitivity option. The stock cable was never an issue since the low end I've got from it was unparalleled so never experience a bottleneck unless the amp/dac was casing it and could be mitigated to an extent with the cable. Cables are the modern snake oil in my opinion for the uninitiated, something they can improve sound but it's so system dependant few have the patience to analyse the stock system and get a grip if it's good or bad. Firehose thickness and design is just too tempting for ego.

    My personal view, the cable are at the end of the upgrade chain, a sensible person never starts with the lowest priority upgrades but head-fi makes us think the fuse is always the most important. Still using a very generic 0.2C one and it still never been an issue for the Susvara sound.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
  11. shabta

    shabta Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Riviera with the chord Dave as a source. It's over 30k for the system with susvara. So insane.

    I also heard it with hifimans tube amp created for susvara, they don't seem to make it anymore. I heard it with a few other amps that day, and the audio valve while driving the headphone to ear splitting levels was much less good. Other times I've heard susvara with a bakoon that was an excellent pairing. I haven't heard it with flux or kinki which both used susvara for tuning and are more normally priced. And in the store I didn't eq the phones.
     
  12. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    980
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Ok, without EQ we have zero disagreement. I'd take the Susvara over the Utopia, SR009S,LCD4 etc

    Riviera with the chord Dave

    I have zero experience with components at this price level. My strong feeling is that a 30k chain for a headphone is pure audiophoolery.

    My guess is that a well designed 1K amp + 1K DAC will sound as good as that 30K chain. I'd love to test this out at a large audio store someday after COVID is done with but for now I'm in the dark so I won't comment further.
     
  13. shabta

    shabta Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    No shit!
    The point I came with is that susvara was really amp dependent. And I am sure the SR009 (and the 007) respond really well to eq.

    " I'd love to test this out at a large audio store someday after COVID is done with but for now I'm in the dark so I won't comment further."

    Yeah after COVID let's meet in amsterdam! I am sure that you can get a speaker amp for susvara and probably a headamp that gets close enough to nirvana without spending multi thousands.
     
  14. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Jakarta, Singapore
    I tested this pairing before and I don't think the super symmetry Dynalo is unlocking the full potential of the Susvara. It's a bit lacking in body and dynamics.

    If you like the SR-009 I feel that a properly driven Susvara share a lot of positive traits of the STAX but with a gentler tonal balance, much better bass and dynamic range. Trade off is slightly less details. I used to own SR-007 but with Susvara I no longer feel the need for stats because the HFM is just better for my tastes and more balanced sounding too.
     
  15. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    980
    Trophy Points:
    93
    What amp did you use with the 007?
     
  16. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Jakarta, Singapore
    It was an old HeadAmp KGSS, one with 2 volume knobs for left and right channels.
     
  17. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    980
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Well I could say the exact same thing about your Stax experience. You haven't heard it at full potential unless you use a kgsshv carbon and EQ. ;)

    Even if an amp puts out 20 watts at 60 ohms can the headphone use that power?

    How much power does the Susvara need? Do we have anything other than hearsay from random headfiers? The same people who say silver Is bright and copper is warm.
     
  18. shabta

    shabta Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I agree the KGSS isn't the best way to hear the SR007. The issue isn't power but current. So it's like that with the Susvara, impedence ( and how it varies) and current are also important besides how many watts of power you can pump out.
     
  19. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Jakarta, Singapore
    You may be right. I want to give you like but I can't find the like button now. :)

    Also specific with Susvara I don't really like Dynalo so maybe I am not being fair.
     
  20. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

    Pyrate Banned
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Likes Received:
    3,989
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    United kingdomland of fish and chips
    Having got the 1266TC and checking it on the scope I tried the Susvara as well to see what kind of input voltage I need to drive it for my preferred listening level.

    This in the result after some minutes and over 1000 samples.

    [​IMG]

    Absolute maximum Peak to Peak voltage is 10.48V at the grid of the 801A, the 1266TC average about 8V showing the Susvara is harder to drive by about 20-25%. I'm only using a single gain stage with μ of 7.5 to 8 with a step down output transformer of 25. Transformer losses are negligible and overall my output power is less than 0.61W into the target loads. Even so the magic is fully there and Susvara trades blows with 1266TC, both are superb without question and a complement to each other if the amp is up for it. Tube amps in general I believe are very well suited for driving plannars and a damping factor between 8 and 15 is my preference even if in theory they're not sensitive to such.

    Interesting how my top two headphones are designed without damping in mind and the D8K which has in built air damping fell very short of the mark, would like to expand on this someday.

    Susvara and TC deserve the best amplification and what I'm working on for the past week and over a year of planning, the endgame headphone cost no object amp:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021

Share This Page