Marvey's DAC Chart of Awesomeness

So the Yggdrasil is $2300. How much would one have to spend on a turntable (including cart, preamp, etc) to first achieve something roughly equal to Yggdrasil, and then how much do you spend to go beyond. Like would a stock Pro-ject Debut Carbon + Schiit Mani get you close (I'm thinking that would be roughly $400 + $129 = $529). Do you have to spend the equivalent of Yggdrasil dollars ($2300) in TT land to equal it, or is the vinyl rig more/less expensive?

Edit: I realize I am asking a question that implicitly requires a somewhat apples to oranges comparison. RIAA mastering on vinyl often has better DR than CD masters, yadda yadda. What I mean is, say you have a really kick ass juicy sweet orange (Yggdrasil). What would it take to match/exceed that level of orange with a super crisp apple (TT).

 

My Project Debut Carbon Espirit SB (Carbon with manufacturer upgrades, LPS, clamp), a Sutherland Ph3D pre amp, and upgrade Ortofon 2m Blue cart is slightly better than my Gungnir Multibit + Mutec MC1.2. Without the Mutec the Gungnir Multibit wasn't close. The limiting factor is certainly my table. My guess that a stock Carbon + Mani beats a Bifrost multi bit (owned a Bifrost Multibit at same time as carbon espirit and TC 750, preferred vinyl) - probably closer to Gungnir Multibit.

I think the point the marv was trying to make above is you can go much further with vinyl and be able to tweak the sound you get. If you want a resolution of a Yggdrasil, but a bit warmer sound you can do that.

I also get a headache reading about jitter, oversampling, filters, bit rate, redbook, word clocks etc. I am sure digital guys think the same about VTA / VTF, azimuth, PRAT, platter speed, inner groove distortion, etc.

 

I have a Project Carbon DC (all stock) + Mani, and I never use it as I feel Gungnir Multibit sounds better in every way.

It probably doesn't help that I don't have a weight/clamp and all my records are more modern rock/metal/pop type stuff. Other than a few 180g ones they do seem pretty crappy quality and are usually slightly warped even purchased new.

 

@Marvey would love to try the black out. I've swapped carts a couple of times and at first it is a bit nerve wracking, but patience and good protractor and scale help out alot. I will PM you.

@kevnin I bet the mani and 2M Red cart are holding things back. I also have warped records and the clamps / weights alleviate this issue. Analog has its own set of quirks and learning curve and its why some try and do not like the process.

I should have mentioned that I have found that a great record on a decent setup will slaughter any digital file (my warped opinion). I have a couple of Miles Davis albums that I use to test out changes in my vinyl system and I can't get even close to the detail, dynamics, width / depth of stage or tone with digital. That's what sold me on vinyl as being the superior choice for the long haul. Since, even with a great .flac and a pimped out digital setup, I always hear that bit of digital sound that keeps me from totally being immersed in the track. Digital has been spoiled, even if it is more convenient at times.

 

Older Music, mainly 80's pop, rock, hip-hop (or rap as it was called back then), freestyle, and electro were what drew me into vinyl. Probably 80% of my 250 record collection was purchased used through Discogs or local shops. I concentrated on mint and near mint records and other than a few fails, the descriptions have been spot on, and/or sellers were willing to work with me to correct problems. Warped records are my biggest enemy, but a record clamp helps tremendously, and I'm actively searching for a used VPI peripery ring (I hate paying MSRP.)

I rip my vinyl to FLAC for on the road enjoyment, and through my Gungnir Multibit at home, or my GOv2. The ripped tracks CAN NOT hold a candle to the source vinyl. The original vinyl track will have an almost 3D like quality with a greater sense of space/width/depth between instruments and vocalists. Actually hearing the back up singers was one of the greatest revelations to me, and not having them smeared into the lead singer's. I can't compare to an Yggdrasil, but to a Gungnir Multibit, there is no contest.

My rig is a used VPI Classic 1 ($1800) + used RSA NightHawk ($500) + Paradox modded Denon DL103 ($350) + stainless VPI record clamp ($125).

Hat's off to @Marvey for the thread on setting up azimuth with a soundcard and free RTA software. It helped me a ton, and made it easy to consistently set the azimuth. My eyes and touch are no where near as good as this almost fool proof method. It was like the final piece of the puzzle, locking in a solid chain of sonic bliss. I was off by almost 6-7dB before, and now it's close to 1 dB. The dB reference is to crosstalk, not difference in the channels.

My Gungnir Multibit is now also mainly used for home theater, or when my RSA Nighthawk runs out of batttery

I forgot to add that used vinyl in very nice condition from the 80's is generally pretty cheap. I like deals and great value

 

+1 on the phono stage and cart playing a big role. My Pro-Ject table got much more play time than Gungnir Multibit once I had the Denon cart set up with the RSA Nighthawk.

Once things are set up, digital just starts sounding flat and lifeless. It is always clean and never warped, or rumbling, but it just lacks in so many ways. I'm not one for the ritual of vinyl, or for buying old audiophile records just because... A large portion of my record albums are newer stuff, I just find bands that I like who also happen to care about quality releases.

 

A recording without coloring, like CDs, can sound boring next to your flavor of choice. I'm in the camp that prefers good digital masters over the lost dynamics, noise etc. of vinyl especially. I bet this discussion is old news, but it's still relevant. Digital has it's problems, most of them have to do with limiting and compression of the source file.

 

I look forward to the day that I pay so much attention to media formats that my favorite music starts to sound "lifeless". That'll be a sign that my audiophile hearing skills are advancing to a higher level and that I am still completely free from neurosis.

 

I have heard DAC beat expensive vinyl rig in dynamics and liveliness.
This was an occasion of probably poorly optimized tt (5 times as expensive as Yggdrasil) v Yggdrasil. There were lots of questionable variables, like Leben phono stage and all the bits-pieces of the tt itself that I had or have no clue about, other than it was f-ing huge, probably weighing 100kg or so and had belt drive.

I am true believer not before I hear one outdo Yggdrasil or even my Soekris.

 

I don't understand where the "vinyl doesn't do dynamics" thing comes from. I don't hear it that way at all. Agree that from a technical standpoint, yes, digital has better transient response, dynamic range etc... however in actual listening I feel the vast majority of program material does not need 124dB of range or the ability to go from 0dB to 100dB in xxx picoseconds to be fully expressed.

As for the $$$ equation. I don't think it's worth it at this point to spend serious $$$ on digital. Digital tech is still rapidly evolving. Analog is a mature market and while it too is still evolving, the pace is much slower. In other words, a great turntable today is still going to be very good/great 5-10 years from now. Your DAC? Highly unlikely IMO though I'm sure there will be some exceptions.

 

I bet it comes from the fact that an LP has a way larger noise floor. The difference between the loudest and softest sounds. Silence is difficult with vinyl. Plus, there is buzz, clicks etc. no matter what you do with it. 16 bits of depth is a dream, far away from reality with vinyl.

I have a measly Project Debut III record player with the standard cartridge (+ Cambridge Audio MM pre). I can already hear you tell me that this approx. 300 euros is nowhere near as much needed for a good setup.

 

That's what I thought. Most of my music is digital too, so I'm concentrating on it.

In the end, I just cannot see a benefit in sound with the LP-format. Good master is a good master, and it's cleaner & better in digital if done right. You don't have to mono the low frequencies or fit stuff into a 30-40 minute package. And have only the first few tracks sounding right.

 

Zed - you haven't had your OMG crap your pants moment with vinyl yet. When / If you do, you will know what the rest of us are talking about. Then you chase the dragon.

 

Josh - you might be right. But is there a possibility, that one of those great vinyl-experiences were had with a 16/44 file converted onto wax? Maybe it's just about that wax?

 

I'm not sure if it's my mind playing tricks on me, but when I listen to my vinyl rip's vs the original on my TT. I can barely hear any noise on the run in to the song or during a quiet passage with my vinyl rig, but the same song ripped is another story...The digital rip sounds like the surface noise is a LOT more noticeable.

 

Undoubtedly I've enjoyed records that were analog conversions of digital recordings, that doesn't necessarily mean that digital is superior in all aspects. You could take that 16/44 master file and make it sound better or worse depending on the system it is played through. Its not a simple apples to apples comparison.

The point I would like to make is that through my listening journey I have found that vinyl has a higher sound quality ceiling potential. Be it dynamics, range, speed, clarity etc great record players / analog system sound better than great dacs. Now it takes time, money, skill and luck to get there, at times is less convenient than digital. I see the benefits of a large digital library compared to a large collection of records. My record player ruined my bifrost multi bit, so I bought a Gungnir Multibit. Still wasn't there. So I bought a mutec converter, close enough to realize I wasn't ever going to get all the way there.

Several people here have put a bunch of money into vinyl systems and found that they weren't to their liking. I respect them for trying, its not for everyone. But to me, that first time I played a familiar record, and a uncontrollable smile breaks out unlike what I experienced before, I knew in my heart I was going to be a record dude first, and a digital guy second.