NwAvGuy's Dream Cums Tru: Schiit Magni 3 Heresy

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifier Measurements' started by purr1n, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    [​IMG]
    upload_2019-11-23_13-21-38.png

    There, I fixed it. Apples to Apples. It really doesn't matter. Both amps are superb. I'd advise you to don't chase, but seeing that the philosophy of the designers is to chase, then chase. Note that the instrumentation and circumstances of the measurements are likely different. Personally, I'd say it's too close to call.
     
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  2. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    Hoping for impressions on how these three compare in sound, too ;)

    Really interesting thread so far, @purr1n
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Double blind level matching tests FTW! I'm serious.

    The only reason I don't do them more often is the level of effort required to set up. And really, who I am fooling? There's gear or modes where I've stated from sighted tests that I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference (Freya+ diff-amp/buffer to passive pot). And then there's gear from sighted tests where I said I could tell, later easily confirmed via blind tests.

    And then there are the few people on the end of the bell curve who really cannot tell the difference, even if we put a gun to their head and allowed them to practice for a week!
     
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  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I know I've tended to concentrate on 300 or 330-ohm loads because I like the Sennheisers or high Z Beyers. Here's the THDN vs mW plot for a 32-ohm load. This is for those of you guys who have Grados and ortho headphones.

    "neo-NwAvGuy" msytery amp
    THDN vs mW into 32-ohm load
    upload_2019-11-23_19-26-24.png

    That's the limit of my signal generator for the AverLAB. We are up to almost 2W (more precisely around 7.75Vrms or 1877mW) into 32-ohms and we see no signs of clipping! There's a wide sweet spot again from 5mW onward, but this is really just academic. Distortion even at lower power levels is still very low.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  5. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    Translation: once you obtain "a wide sweet spot", the easier it is to achieve higher pleasure.
     
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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Apples to Apples
    to NwAvGuy's Objective 2

    Honestly, I think NwAvGuy would be extremely happy right now knowing the price point (sub $150 I believe). The only complaint from NwAvGuy might be "what took you guys so long?" However, I think the performance of this amp speaks for itself. The performance is FAR better than the O2. This would and should be expected some 7-8 years later.

    Let's compare with 32-ohm (or 33) load. That would be the green line below. Here, I've lifted NwAvGuy's own measurements. I've made the y-axis the same between both plots. However, note that the mystery amp's x-axis has been expanded to a slight bit.

    THDN vs. V into 32-ohm (33 for O2) load (reference green line)
    [​IMG]
    THDN vs. V into 32-ohm (33 for O2) load.
    upload_2019-11-23_19-48-2.png

    As we can see, this "neo-NwAvGuy" utterly destroys the O2 in terms of distortion, and yet hasn't even run out of steam. The classic O2 runs out of steam at 4V already. Hopefully, we'll see more manufacturers paying attention to the 0.0000 designs. There's no reason why all gear shouldn't be like this in 2019 and be cheap at the same time.

    This is all to you NwAvGuy! By the time American Turkey Day comes around, our ears and pocketbooks will thank you.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  7. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Thought at first it'd be the one amp someone on another forum'd discussed a couple days before the original post here, but given there's a press embargo so I doubt it (this isn't the GAP is it?). @purr1n can't recall if you've got any measurements of the JDS Atom to compare to but that seems like what loads of people in the interested market might be pitting this mystery amp up against. Hoping the price range is similar-ish, haha.

    If this is closer to THX789 territory then that's still a hell of a lot of measurements-waggling in the latter's face. You mentioned they were cool with you posting measurements, so I'm guessing subjectives are still on the down low?
     
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  8. Yerim

    Yerim Rando

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    If this is the case, if I can get my hands on this we can do a loaner tour here on PH.
     
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  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I'm staying away from the subjective game here for a while. You guys already know where I stand in regards to 0.01% vs 0.0001% THD - scientifically speaking in terms of human perception, there's no difference between the two. That doesn't mean this amp can't be amazing. Or it might only be decent.

    Let the people decide. This ultimately this is a hobby that involves perception, therefore I would hope that people rely on listening tests using methods where they can personally be assured that what they hear is not bogus.

    This could mean sighted tests, blind tests, triple blind level matched tests, it's really not up to me. Some people who desire more assurance may elect to use more rigorous methods. Others who are confident in their own abilities or maybe don't require a high level of assuredness can rely on simple level matched sighted listening tests. Who I am to criticize what people want to do?

    It wouldn't be scientific at all to rely only on measurements since the AP-555 or AverLAB isn't a substitute for our ears, our brains, and our consciousness. However, if people don't feel comfortable trusting their senses or are the type to buy fast cars based on their Car & Driver 1/4 mile times and skidpad numbers, then by all means, buy this amp when it comes out next week.

    I'm sure we can have loaner available.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  10. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Nah I agree that while measurements can be extremely useful (esp. for transducers), there's no real substitute for trying stuff out in the home setting, i.e. where it's likely to get most "actual" use that doesn't involve forcing yourself to listen critically, which can be irritating ergo skews perception— store demos are the next best thing, but environmental noise can be a female dog in heat.

    There are a few people on here whose preferences I have a handle on so I figured I'd fish for impressions, but if this is an el cheapo I can drag someone local into getting one so I can trade shiz with them for a bit :p
     
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  11. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    The mystery amp may have lower distortion than can be determined by today's best analyzers in the operating region being discussed.

    As for measurements are hard, here is a really hard one to make:

    20191125 mystery analyzer measurement.png

    This is a special case measurement of a special component which has no active components.
     
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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Nah. Measurements aren't hard. This amp simply has no distortion. It's wire with gain.
     
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  13. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Ha! A wise man once told me "I don't think anything sounds like wire with gain. Anyone who claims any piece of gear is wire with gain is full of shit." Makes me wonder if it's something more than just sarcasm is going on here? ;)
     
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  14. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Amir is much worse than Nwavguy for drivers. He uses the Asio4all wrapper instead of the manufacturer supplied asio drivers. Almost all of his measurements are suspect. He recommends trashy Chinese DACs with no drivers based on price and his hasty, precarious measurements. Then he disprages cheap gear that sounds quite good and gives buyers a ton for the price like the Schiit Modi 3 and Focusrite Clarett 2pre because he is careless, biased and full of himself. He refuses to acknowledge that the Windows audio stack is itself colored and measures quite off and seems to think that all his own work at Microsoft (like buying pacific microsonics to get the profits from the hdcd licensing scheme) with regards to audio was perfect and laudable. If that was the case, then more brands would be super reliable, latencymon would have no reason to exist, and people wouldn’t be buying RME and PCI-E cards.

    Nwavguy’s commissioned odac was greatly held back by usb only and the usb receiver chip not having an exclusive mode to bypass operating system audio stack tomfoolery with wasapi.
     
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  15. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    For all you know, I could hate this thing and think it sounds like ass, or think WTF did the designer even make this? Or I could absolutely love it. Not gonna say and will let people decide for themselves.
     
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  16. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    All eighty-three dollars and two cents from licensing? I do have a handful of CDs encoded with HDCD and had a Sonic Frontiers DAC that could decode them. I don't think Microsoft knew what the hell to do with HDCD. Microsoft back then was like Google now, buying some good shit and letting the original inventors cash out and leave (didn't the PM guys end up as Berkeley?)

    Imagine if HDCD tech was adopted by the music studios, and then implemented in Zune, something I believe Amir also headed up, along with HD-DVD. I imagine pulling off that kind of stuff successfully must be difficult. Need to be a visionary, get things done by sheer a force of will, and be really good at "making friends and influencing people" to get all the potential stakeholders to play together. In the end, it wouldn't have mattered. iPod functionality was going being built into phones and Sony just had too much of an inside track at the MPAA technology committees to push Blu-ray.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  17. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    These Magni 4 measurements are looking great* ;)

    *No I don't know, but 99% likely it's a Schiit amp after some hints dropped by Jason on HF.
     
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  18. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    From everything I’ve heard, the good part of Pacific Microsonics was the gear. Microsoft discontinued the actual converters and that was the end.
     
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  19. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Wow that now sounds like a very likely conspiracy. My curiosity gratified!

    I've been wondering why Marv spent so much time in this ASR-friendly (lol) amp.
     
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  20. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The PM AD and DA pro converters and also the PMD100 and PMD200 digital filter / HDCD chips. They have a "sound" that a lot of people liked.

    HDCD was basically MQA part one 30 years ago. A lossy higher rez (4 more bits) format embedded in 16-bit PCM that could be played straight through any regular system, but required the PM converter for the higher rez playback The secret was more in the better care during the audio engineering process because it was going to be "HDCD".
     
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    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019

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