OTLs, tube rolling, and other glowing delights

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by Shaffer, Nov 7, 2015.

  1. 8man

    8man Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2015
    Likes Received:
    17
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Oh, really sorry for putting you through the trouble, I do not own a Lyr 2, I was just trying to decide which one to go for. I've looked through more reviews and I'm leaning towards Project Ember II or Sunrise III, as for Lyr 2, many people said it doesn't quite offer a tubey sound so that's why I thought it's not a good idea. I've asked about the HD700 because I've heard it has weird treble spikes and it might pose a considerable problem. So I was curious about a review because I might go for either that or T90, have found some decent offers for both, but the HD700 isn't returnable. Anyways sorry for that offtopic and appreciate the tube suggestions, I'm gonna look into a pair of 6n6p as I've heard it's pretty close to 6n30p for much lesser money (or a single one I guess, I don't know if they're sold as a pair).
    Can't wait to read Tyll's review :D !
    Btw, how did you learn all these things ? Are there books which explain this whole circuitry and tube properties ? Or maybe internet guides anywhere ? Wiki doesn't seem to be that explanatory.

    Edit: I find it entirely fascinating how a vacuum tube intended for radars or military equipment can give your amp an amazing sound.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  2. gibosi

    gibosi Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Likes Received:
    74
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Unfortunately, I am not aware of any shortcuts... My knowledge is the result of having rolled a collection of over 1000 tubes through a Little Dot 1+ hybrid and a Glenn OTL. Again, heater current is the major limitation. And it is possible to work around that limitation with an external DC heater power supply as I did with the Little Dot. Doing so enabled me to easily roll tubes exceeding that amps 450mA heater current upper limit, as well as 12.6V and 25.2V tubes. If the Ember or Sunrise can safely power the heaters, any of these tubes might be worth a try.

    Cheers

    PS: My Little "Monster" Dot with an external 9-pin socket and DC heater power supply

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
    Smitty and 8man like this.
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    53,362
    Dislikes Received:
    89
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    This is a function of power output, output impedance, and nominal impedance / impedance curve of the driver. I doubt the Glenn OTLs will drive the HE-6 or HE-560 with the impact and control of a powerful solid-state amp with < 1 ohm out output resistance. But I'm betting the Glenn OTLs would do fine with the HE400S or X00, as would the Valhalla 2 or other OTL amps of similar specs.
     
  4. gibosi

    gibosi Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Likes Received:
    74
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    The Glenn's advantage is that it can use a pair of 6336, with heaters drawing 5.0A each, as output tubes. And with this much heater current available, some have asked Glenn to put in some extra output sockets to allow the use of four 6AS7, two per side, or six 6BL7, three per side. That said, I do not have any of these cans, so I can only go by what others say.....
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    53,362
    Dislikes Received:
    89
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    I would say that you need to more specific with any claims. The way your worded things "The only OTL I am aware of that can handle low-Z cans well is the Glenn." makes it seem that perhaps Glenn's amps are able to violate the laws of physics and electricity.

    Yes, it does appear that the Glenn OTL amps have the potential to have lower output impedance and more power by specifically ordering custom built amps with paralleled output tubes; but again without specifics (output power, output impedance, etc.), and real experience with specific headphones, this is just nonsense gibberish talk per HF.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  6. Shaffer

    Shaffer Facebook Friend

    Executed
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    41
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    NYS
    Gibosi, Mikel, et al, I'm out of here. No need to be treated with so little respect.
     
    punit likes this.
  7. gibosi

    gibosi Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Likes Received:
    74
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Yeah, I think I am out of here too... No sense in needlessly exposing the good people in this forum to any more of my "nonsense gibberish talk". lol. :)

    Cheers
     
  8. lukeap69

    lukeap69 Pinoy Panther

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2015
    Likes Received:
    73
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    That's a shame Shaffer and gibosi. I am totally enjoying your posts not to mention learning from you guys.
     
  9. 8man

    8man Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2015
    Likes Received:
    17
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Even though it's offtopic I will go ahead and second to that @lukeap69 , always appreciate these people's effort to express such great opinions, and also accessible for even newbies like me. Overall I think I've learned a lot from this community, would be a shame to not see any more of their pleasant posts!
     
  10. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

    Staff Member Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,306
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NYC
    But then... who's going to tell us about the greatness of the Elise?
     
    SSL likes this.
  11. velvetx

    velvetx Gear Master West/Vendor Spotlight Moderator

    Staff Member Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,094
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I am getting a loaner :) Just working out logistics.
     
  12. thegunner100

    thegunner100 Hentai Master Chief

    Staff Member Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,306
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NYC
    Ever so diligent I see :p
     
  13. Shaffer

    Shaffer Facebook Friend

    Executed
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Likes Received:
    41
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    NYS
    I haven't been able to get in touch with gibosi since you did your little song and dance on him. Clearly, ganging-up on an elderly, kind gentleman who knows more about tubes than anyone here is OK with you. He's not a fighter. Just the opposite. The man hates to say a bad word about anyone and has critiqued me for it numerous times. Still, he held his ground against all of you, and your undiluted ignorance and rudeness. That's a man. A real man.

    Gibosi was only here to help. You hurt him. It's not a line. You did hurt him. For no reason.

    Not being here to stand up for the man is on me. I feel tremendous guilt and most likely will never forget this. I let a friend down. A friend who came here to help folks, because I asked him to. Ultimately, what happened to him is my fault.

    Being a group of assholes who needlessly hurt someone so gracious, cordial, and humane - that's on you!
     
  14. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday! - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,506
    Dislikes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Washington D.C.
     
    blackships, purr1n and Kunlun like this.
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    53,362
    Dislikes Received:
    89
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    I sincerely apologize for my dickish behavior; but I would have hoped that some of you folks took a little look around (and perhaps at the prior iteration of this site) before you decided to carve out a little section here for yourselves. Did I come on too hard? Looking back and now understanding the situation, most definitely. Do I know you guys even a little bit? Absolutely not. You guys didn't even bother to introduce yourselves despite the big banner that says "New members, please introduce yourselves." at the top of the home page. This is why we ask all new members to introduce themselves; so we understand a little bit about your personalities and motivations.

    I can appreciate what you guys are doing, the mutual adulation over seeing each others' tube rolling journeys. Kind of like when car guys meet up to check out each others cars or when Orange County housewives have a party to show off their boob jobs. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Except that this forum, if you know anything about its roots, might be not be the right place to do that. I would suggest HF, but it appears that you have been banned at HF; and in my experience, people who are outright HF rejects tend not to do to well at other forums including this one. For all I know, you invited a few of your friends here thinking you could carve out a safe spot, except you didn't realize the kind of bar you walked into, and now the regular patrons have noticed you.

    The crowd here is fairly hardcore. Even if they have modest gear, they are still hardcore. As Hands stated, in this thread, it's just a bunch of you guys posting photos of your tubes with nary a comment on the sonics to assist those who may be interested in getting the right tube for their amp. Basically you guys are treating this site as a tube Facebook of sorts, sharing photos while implying "Look at my toobs, arent they awesome", "Yep, your toobs are so nice". This is not what SuperBAF is about. SuperBAF is about knowledge to make smart purchasing decisions. Blanket statements like "The only OTL I am aware of that can handle low-Z cans well is the Glenn" without specifics (headphones, actual amplifier configuration) or "that gentleman who knows more about tubes than anyone" will be challenged as being misinformative. On the last point, if he really knew that much about tubes, he would be building amps instead of tube rolling. And I am surprised that none of you guys have rolled caps, considering that caps are a big deal with OTLs.

    To close out this discussion, and to be perfectly clear, no one will ever crapped upon for stating their own subjective impressions. Maybe an incredulous "Seriously? You like that?" But no one will ever be given the dickbag treatment for honest opinions about gear so long as they are first hand. And I think this last point is implicit, but maybe I should state it anyways: "that's why I've been told" or "that's what others say", especially when its framed as firsthand experience, is extremely frowned upon.

    Again, I apologize; but I think this was just a huge misunderstanding with you guys not understanding the real purpose and audience of this forum. In the end, just a bad fit.

    P.S. My only advice to many older folks is that you first look around before you decide to take a seat at the bar and start blathering, especially if it is on the Internet.

    P.S.S. I mean, did you guys really not notice the "colorful" language, the irreverent attitude, and the golden phallus awards on the other parts of this site? How long did you think your little safe zone was going to last before the rest of the site caught up with it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
    FlySweep and Kunlun like this.
  16. Griffon

    Griffon 2nd biggest asshole on SBAF

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,345
    Dislikes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Hipster capital of Canada
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/must-read-seven-simple-guidelines.3/

    Have you read the fucking simple guidelines? Several members, mod or not, are fully turning on asshat mode to you. You feel no need to reflect on yourself? Do you know your posting the pics of your tubes and gears are nothing more than showcasing your big ego? As if you are the most knowledgeable member on tube topics? You ever realize you have not been able to describe the sound of your tubes or gears with accuracy? Now don't tell me you don't like to use audiophille jargons, you're just a music lover. The fact that every single one here, including you, are investing hundreds, thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into niche equipments not necessary for industrial purpose, proves that we are all audiophiles.

    Do you want to contribute to this site? Or continue your big dick tube showoff train?
     
    FlySweep and purr1n like this.
  17. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    10,462
    Dislikes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Have everyone in the house fed and have time to reply here now.

    Let's be real, this wasn't everyone dogpiling on your and your buddy who were standing innocently on the corner. This was some pretty honest comments about the big "let's show off to each other" nature of this thread.

    I was gone for two months due to family and work obligations that kept me off of SuperBAF. Toward the end of that time, I started getting texts on my personal phone, emails, and PMs here from various members mentioning how this place had gone to shit. I didn't understand it until I logged in and noticed the sheer amount of crap that was being posted.

    Let me be clear, the gently fondling of each others' egos in this thread and spreading nonsense is crap. SuperBAF is oddly attracting a huge number of new members and guests and they look for USEFUL information. Two or three fellas with crappy amps rolling 1000s of tubes and posting pictures is not helpful. It's noise. You're convincing new members to spend money on gear that, in most cases, we've validated to be a poor value. Not only that, you're suggesting that tube rolling on a mediocre amp may somehow be a good idea. That's shitty of you. For you to come in here and then berate Marv for trying to reduce the noise on the forum while standing on your soapbox is pretty ridiculous.

    Look, if you want to share pictures of your tube rolling and high five each other, most young people can tell you there's a social media platform for that called Instagram. If you want to engage in serious conversation about gear and be challenged by others in the hobby, stick around here. You'll eventually get people like CEE TEE who have traveled to the heights of the BA and custom Zana Deux prototypes and rolled tubes on those platforms dropping knowledge if you wait long enough.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2015
    purr1n and drfindley like this.
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    53,362
    Dislikes Received:
    89
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    OMG. I am getting old. I now realize what all the buzz about Instagram is about. (I think most of you guys know how old I really am - I just look young and act like a 12 year-old, maybe 8.)

    Rolling transformers is fun too. Rolled about eight interstage transformers for the Studio. Actually, it's not fun.
     
    zerodeefex and Gray like this.
  19. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    10,462
    Dislikes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Any impressions on the different transformers? :)
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    53,362
    Dislikes Received:
    89
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triode
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law
    http://www.tubecad.com
    http://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Amplifier-Basics-Jurich/dp/1500938866/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=51iH9ymozlL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR124,160_&refRID=0VMKY5AXPNK4NN9TS3CZ

    Various tube data sheets:

    http://www.lampizator.eu/UPGRADE/RU-6N6P.pdf
    http://www.radiostation.ru/tubes/6SN7.pdf
    There are other "secret" resources on sockets and pin compability for tubes, but I won't give them to you for good reason. I fear the repercussions of doing so.

    Some tubes may be pin compatible (or you can get an adapter) and as @gibosi stated, they can be used without harm as long as the heater's current draw doesn't exceed the amps' design.

    Yes, in many cases, different tubes as long as they are pin and socket compatible will "work". The problem is that different tubes may have different operating points and electrical characteristics, plate voltage, bias, plate resistance, gain, etc. and a designer will design the circuit to use a specific tube under certain operating points. When you swap around tubes, especially tubes which were not what the designer intended, you start screwing with stuff. The sound could be better, worse, more distorted, quieter, louder, have more bass, have less treble, rolled-off, more powerful, more limp, more lively, more closed-in, etc. In some cases, it's not necessarily the tube sounding different, but rather the operating points have changed a bit from what they should be for that tube, and according to what the designer intended.

    The great thing about tubes is that they are robust. You may blow a fuse on the amp if you plug in something that shouldn't be plugged in. With transistors, you will get bits of plastic flying all over the place with sizzling smoke if you did something wrong.

    My advice is to stick with the tube recommendations that the manufacturer recommends and focus most on the amp. A better amp with "mediocre" tubes is going to sound better than a lesser amp with the most expensive "unobtainium" tubes.

    I can tell you a few stories about morons who fucked up their EC amps via tube rolling. For any amp, there are going to be a few tubes that will commonly be accepted as the "good ones". In my opinion, excessive tube rollers should be shot, as a wise man once posed the question: "Do you listen to tubes or do you listen to music?"

    Same thing for transistors or diodes... or digital to analog conversion chips. The AD5791 was intended for medical or military applications. It says so on the data sheet. You too can be an expert on history if you read enough tube data sheets.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
    Smitty, The Alchemist and schiit like this.

Share This Page