Power Cables

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by cskippy, Mar 18, 2016.

  1. SSL

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    Looks like I'll never be getting any power cables, then.
     
  2. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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  3. SSL

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  4. Hekeli

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    What's up with the smarmy objectivist wanna-be-funny comments with zero value? I'd be more impressed if actually trying few cables and not hearing a difference.
     
  5. Thenewerguy009

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    I did buy one a expensive-ish power cord & did immediately notice a blacker background. Not sure if it improved anything else. Hard to do A/B tests with a power cord & a tube amps that has to warm up several minutes

    The ground loop noise issue I have at higher levels becomes louder & more clearer/apparent though. I assume this might be because of more detail the power cord is extracting?
     
  6. SSL

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    I wouldn't. I would just assume that those smarmy objectivists were confirming their bias.
     
  7. Ray

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    I bought a couple Pangea power cords on sale. No difference. Sex was a rare event before the cords. No difference there either.
     
  8. Armaegis

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    The reason the sex is rare is because those expensive power cords are so thick that they can't hold a decent knot...
     
  9. JewBear

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    What is a blacker background? Could you describe the blackness? What is this blackness you speak of? Do you mean it had less noise?
     
  10. Thenewerguy009

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    When turning the amp on & not playing any music, there is a lower audible noise floor. I could still tell that the amp was turned on compared to listening to headphones with it turned off though so it's not perfect.
     
  11. SSL

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    Situations like this would lead me to question my choice of amp, rather than buying a cable to "fix" it. Magni 2U doesn't have a noise floor that I can hear.
     
  12. zonto

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    Incorrect. There is nothing disingenuous about it. Your ideology is to be closed-minded. Try new headphones or try an upgrade cable. If you like it, buy it. If not, send it back.

    You could know if you tried with an open mind. Nothing to lose except ignorance and maybe return shipping.

    I don't believe you.

    Possibly.

    Probably true (in both the literal and tongue-in-cheek interpretations of your comment). :)

    The new amp point again.

    We get it. Your opinion is power cables can't make a difference, and they are not for you. You don't want to try one. That's fine. Please move along then and stop trying to convert everyone to your ideology. Some people are fine spending (a hopefully reasonable amount of) money on upgrade cables. Some notice differences, and others probably don't. And that's ok.

    There is room for objectivity and subjectivity (on both the micro and macro levels) in the hobby.
     
  13. SSL

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    Not converting, challenging. People hate "conflict", but then we end up with pointlessly expensive nonsense like $4k-50k headphones and cables with crystals on them.

    Well, then at least one of us closed-minded. Your branding of my observations as an "ideology" may be a convenient justification for categorically rejecting them, but then we have to admit that there is ideology on both sides. I don't see why I should be the one that "moves on", or indeed that anyone should.
     
  14. zonto

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    Those things are pointlessly expensive to you. That's a decision you've made. They may not be to someone else, and that's ok. I feel the same way about sports cars or nice watches, but I don't go around the internet chiding people that spend their money on them. A Timex or my smartphone objectively tells time like a more expensive watch does. I bet a watch aficionado could name plenty of reasons as to why their watch is objectively and/or subjectively better.

    That is correct. One of us is closed-minded.

    I've read the arguments against upgraded power cables. I've also read the arguments for them. I agree with points on both sides. In my system, a few upgraded power cords have made small improvements with some components. And that makes them worth it to me.

    You do have an ideology: objectivism, but the kind that isn't helpful. It's like ODAC-fanatic objectivism. The kind that attacks relentlessly all those who challenge it. You do not have helpful observations because you have no personal experience with what you're dismissing. If all that mattered were a few measurements, we should all just run the ODAC right? We've heard this all before. You're just applying it to power cables in this thread.

    I'm not asking you to move on from your ideology. I'm asking you to move on from the thread because you've repeatedly made your point, often in a snide or "smarmy" manner, and you don't know when to quit. There's a great, recent post by Jason on HF about objectivity vs. subjectivity, and I highly recommend reading it if you have not.

    I've offered some objectivity for why upgrading a black cord can be beneficial in some instances. There is more data available online. No one is discussing or recommending power cables with crystals on them here. Buy or borrow a Pangea, Shunyata Venom 3, or even a thick Volex or similar cord and use it in your system for a couple weeks. Then go back to your stock cord. If you notice a positive difference with the new cable, great. If not, then that's fine too, and you send it back.
     
  15. chakku

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    I have yet to see a valid argument 'for' power cables making an audible difference outside 'I hear a difference™'. It's quite obvious how weak your counterargument is when you have to strawman and pull the NwAvGuy card.
    Yes we have in fact heard the 'power cables make it sound better' claim many, many times, with nothing but anecdotal """"""evidence***"""""" to suggest it makes a perceivable difference.

    ***using this loosely as it clearly isn't evidence of anything.

    Also if you're paying big buck for products that come with subpar or crappy power cables it's probably best to consider buying from other manufacturers. Just my 2c.
     
  16. SSL

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    And would you find anything "helpful" that fails to validate your "ideology"? You've decided that my posts must be "attacks" and attempts at "conversion" because you're taking my disputation of your conclusions personally. Because critical comments must be "attacks", and expression of an opinion must be an attempt to convert others. Thus, my accusation of disingenuousness previously.

    Good for you? Regardless, the narrative that unbridled spending doesn't hurt anyone is dishonest and flawed. I read that in Stoddard's Head-fi post and I didn't agree with it any more when he said it. What people spend their money on does affect others because it directly drives pricing. The HE-1000 doesn't cost $3k because the aggregate of the BOM, R&D, marketing, etc. cost that much. It costs that much because people will pay. How and why? Well, inevitably, someone trots out the tired canard:

    Just like that. Which immediately shuts down all conversation regarding the appropriate valuation of a product. That is why we are seeking headphones costing $3k and up which still have significant, objective flaws compared to headphones nearly a tenth of the price. The cloistered attitude of "you made your point, which I will ignore; now leave me to spend my money" is at least partly to blame for the current direction of the industry.
     
  17. zonto

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    I hear you. There are good arguments on both sides. I also find the objective side more persuasive, but this does not mean there is no room for the subjective. "Of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

    A few resources to consider:

    Can We Hear Differences Between A/C Power Cords? An ABX Blind Test

    An honest attempt at providing evidence. People failed the test. I like the Conclusions section. One reason why an ABX test is more difficult with power cords as opposed to interconnects is because of the turn-off, replace, turn-on process.

    Why Power Cables Make a Difference

    Ignoring the obvious, inauthentic hyperbole (see "every" in the first paragraph), this article makes some points worth considering. As Mr. Gabriel has devoted years to the endeavor, I think it is possible to consider his research and findings, while recognizing that his livelihood depends on the power cable/distribution market. Shunyata has other resources available online (e.g., this Electrical Systems Guide and this brochure, the latter containing some objective measurements).

    Myths and Snake Oil

    The first two sections are relevant and discuss some reasons why a different cord may be worthwhile. The comments about transient response are similar to what Shunyata calls DTCD in their marketing, for what that's worth.

    I think you misinterpret my posts. I also did not take anything personally. I just tire of the smarm. I'm not touting power cord upgrades as the holy grail of audiophile-dom. I also approach them with a healthy degree of skepticism and do not have much experience with upgraded cords. I've tried two, with varying degrees of "success."

    Your comments are no longer helpful because you have gone from presenting an objective argument to implying that it is impossible to hear what another user heard upgrading one cable on their equipment of which you know nothing about. You then told two users to purchase another amp (while apparently using a Magni 2 Uber yourself).

    Your comments are no longer helpful because you have no personal experience with what you are dismissing.

    Here is support for the objective argument: Audio Power Cables & Cords - Do they really make a difference?

    This is helpful because it's an equipment-agnostic resource with explanations instead of smart-aleck responses to users' subjective impressions. This resource, and the links I shared earlier in the thread, should be considered with those linked to above.

    Some other users' posts in the thread have been helpful because they make the point that before one begins upgrading power cables, they should upgrade their equipment. No one in this thread has argued otherwise, nor has anyone argued that upgrading a power cable offers more sonic benefit than an upgrade of headphones/speakers or amplifier.

    No one is discussing unbridled spending in this thread. Even if the spending we were discussing was "unbridled," it does not hurt anyone. We may have to agree to disagree here. What someone spends their money on does not affect me unless I let it. The fact that people buy Beats headphones instead of something on an SBAF guide does not hurt me, even though I do not agree with that decision. The fact that there are power cables that cost more than my car does not affect me because I can buy a blackie and move on.

    If you zoom out, your argument really has nothing to do with power cables anymore. It now encompasses the entire audio/video industry and is anti-capitalism.

    It should be of no personal concern to you how much someone else pays or is willing to pay for a product. That is between them and the supplier. If you can't afford a widget or simply don't want to afford it because you do not see objective value in it or think you will not find subjective enjoyment by doing so, then don't. Move along.

    Why should Sennheiser seek to improve upon the HD580? Because they want to, and there's a market for it. Why should they produce another headphone after the HD600? Because they want to, and there's a market for it. Why should Sennheiser change the headphone cable on the HD650 if the HD600 cable was "good enough?" Why should they produce the HD800, repeatedly derided for being an overpriced product at the time? Who would ever spend that much money on headphones? Why should Sennheiser release a slightly-tweaked version of the HD800 this year?

    But the question that probably keeps you up at night is: Why would Sennheiser produce and market the HE1 in all its marbled glory?

    Why not?


    Or: because they want to, and there's a market for it. When you make statements like the above about the industry, how do you expect not to conjure up recollections of NwAvGuy and his fight against the audiophile industry by using measurements alone? There should always be room for objectivity and subjectivity (on both the micro and macro levels) in the hobby.

    In an effort to keep the thread somewhat on-topic, I'd be happy to continue the discussion privately if you'd like.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
  18. Thenewerguy009

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  19. JewBear

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    1) Not blind, invalid
    2) Not blind, invalid
    3) Not blind, invalid
    4) The only blind test proved no difference could be heard. Invalid.

    You clearly don't understand what objective means.
     
  20. Thenewerguy009

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    Whoops, meant to type in subjective.
     

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